Calling all board natzis (rant alert)

[Gungadin]

Welcome :-)
I recently had the last straw with EQ, and i closed my account. I've cleaned off my linux box and sold it, and am now cleaning out my bookmark file getting rid of the EQ sites i will no longer need, and i thought i'd just put one last post here before i delete this one two.

Firstly i have to say thanks to the developesr of showeq, you did a brilliant job, and i enjoyed your product it's the only thing that kept me playing as long as i did, keep up the good work. It's so nice to see such devotion and hard work put into a free product, as well as the outstanding way in which you listen to your user base and develop it as your users want (although i guess if a lot of your developers are also your user base then not so supprising :-). If only the people that made the commercial products could do this well!

Secondly, well done to those people that are posting usefull information here on the boards, both in the form of help, and also FAQ's and user guides, as well as ideas for future features.

But, the one thing i do see here (and although i see it on other boards it it most prevalent on thses boards, maybe something to do with the linux tech environment?) is the Board Natzi. By this i mean people that cruise the boards, looking for fresh posts to pounce on with the good old "learn to use search" reply.

Now i agree, the search feature is a very handy tool, and should be used. When used right It can often find the answer you are looking for, saving you time and not filling the board up with repetative questions.

But you should also remember most of the questions come from people that are new to seq, and are probably new to the forum thing as well (i know i was when i first started using seq) The search button is not prominent on this board (it is much easier to see on some other types of forum) and a newbie can often not realize it's true power. I still have trouble finding the best search phrases top use.

So rather than leaning down from our ivory towers, commanding those ignorant worms to use the tools they were offered, lets try and be a bit friendlier. How about you tell em what they want to know, then explain that if they used the search engine they wouldn't have had to wait for the answer. Maybe give them an example of search strings to use, in case thay run into trouble. IE try giving positive reinforcement.

Lets face it, if you have nothing better to do that cruise the boards adding 'use the search' replies, you have the time to add something a little more constructive. Yes, let them know they can search, but let them know we as a community do care and can help (we know you can: most of the people i have seen post 'use the search' messages have also provided very helpfull replies on occasion too!)

Please remember, unless you are dilbert, you were new to all this too, and you had to learn the ropes. Why not make it as pleasant for others as you whish it had been for you. If you have the energy to come to the board, read the posts, and place a reply, is it that much more effort to add some encoragement?

For all those of you that say you are sick of the same old questions, i say to you why are you reading these these new posts then replying? If you bother to reply, you either want to help the person or piss em off. if you want to piss em off then you must be able to do a better job than 'use the search'. If you want to help then provide some decent help.

Some people use the old "Give the man a fish and he eats once, but teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life", how about "Feed the man and Teach him to fish, and he will understand what a gift the skill of fishing will mean to him"

In summary, if you can't think of anything more usefull to put in a reply other than 'use search' (ie don't know the answer yourself, couldn't be arsed to type it in etc) then at least be nice about it, or just don't bother.

Anyway, thanks for reading. I hope SEQ goes on for a long long time, and my thanks again to the whole seq community for it's help in the past. All the best

Gungadin
an Ex EQ'er

PS: I'll be deleting this bookmark after this post so wont be able to participate in flame wars, sorry :-)

[high_jeeves]

This has been posted before, please use search to find other related threads...


--Jeeves

[fryfrog]

BWAHAHHAHAhahahhaha :)

[RSB]

*sniff* *sniff* (small tear runs down my face)
bye
/em kicks the door closed.

Well there goes another waste of life.....time to get back to Morrowind

[link129]

Is Morrowind any good? Been thinking about pick'n it up.

[BlueAdept]

Originally posted by high_jeeves
This has been posted before, please use search to find other related threads...


--Jeeves

LOL...sad but true.


Originally posted by Gungadin
I recently had the last straw with EQ, and i closed my account. I've cleaned off my linux box and sold it, and am now cleaning out my bookmark file getting rid of the EQ sites i will no longer need, and i thought i'd just put one last post here before i delete this one two.

I give him about 3-4 months before he is praying that he can find all those links again and that he can remember how to re-set up SEQ.


Originally posted by Gungadin
Please remember, unless you are dilbert, you were new to all this too, and you had to learn the ropes. Why not make it as pleasant for others as you whish it had been for you. If you have the energy to come to the board, read the posts, and place a reply, is it that much more effort to add some encoragement?

When I first decided to install SEQ, I READ the message boards, I did searches on lycos for linux help sites, I bought a book and read it. I installed RH 6.0 with no problems. I installed SEQ and compiled but ran into a problem. It used to be more involved several years ago than it is now (there were NO help guides back then...just misc posts). I believe my problem was that I had installed the wrong QT version.

I dont think I got flamed because I did read the message boards, knew pretty much what I was talking about and posted all the information I could think of (including the error message).

The only people who usually get flamed are people who dont give a shit about anyone else and think that they are special because they dont have to figure out the problems on their own.

People who post "how do I get SEQ" or "how do I get this to run in windows" or "Im not seeing any packets" yet the post below it explains in great detail on how to find the problem, they DESERVE to be flamed. We are not your mama, we will not take you by the hand and walk you through every step of the way. We will point people in the right direction and sometimes kick you in the ass while doing so but even the "Use the Search Feature" posts DO point people in the right direction.

This moron waits until his last day before he posts this crap. What a loser...just wait until he comes back and asks for help.

[RSB]

I love to explore and Morrowind is great for that. Lots, and I mean LOTS of quests. Lots of caverns and stuff to explore plus some good user content coming out. The editor is really good too.
I'm not much for single player games but its got me hooked until we get NWN over here (hopefully in a few days) and hanging out for SWG as the worlds there are supposed to be huge.

Oh and watching the rain on the water on a GF3 or better card still makes me go "WOW"

[PawnOrc]

Gungadin,

Its not a Linux thing. It is common on sites that are (directly or in-directly) related to cheating. SEQ is a cheat program to the degree that it gives "unauthorized advantages" to those who use it.

You find clowns like high_jeeves on sites of this type. I think they really get into the "ganster thang" but can't make a real difference so they post crap like you mention.

Putting up with these squirts comes with the cheater turf. If you want to contribute to great stuff like SEQ, you have to ignore the squirts.

[high_jeeves]

And this "thug" (who has helped TONS of people on these boards get SEQ installed correctly), says the same to you as he says to all the other people who whine when they get yelled at because they cant participate in a forum correctly:

You can bitch at me, when you start helping people.. unit they, you just waste bandwidth..

It has nothing to do with being on a cheating forum.. Go read the gentoo linux forums.. they are as bad as these... so are just about any forums out there.

If you dont have anything use to provide to these forums (which I do, on a regular basis), then just go away.

--Jeeves

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by PawnOrc
Gungadin,

Its not a Linux thing. It is common on sites that are (directly or in-directly) related to cheating. SEQ is a cheat program to the degree that it gives "unauthorized advantages" to those who use it.

You find clowns like high_jeeves on sites of this type. I think they really get into the "ganster thang" but can't make a real difference so they post crap like you mention.

Putting up with these squirts comes with the cheater turf. If you want to contribute to great stuff like SEQ, you have to ignore the squirts.

Your theory is flawed. If your theory were true High_jeeves, and the rest of us, so called "Gangsters", would answer every post in the same way. On the contrary, all legitimate questions are answered, all legitimate problems are addressed. It's when the same questions have been asked and answered dozens and dozens of times. Many times the question is even located on the first page with a very similar subject. Those are the posts that get the canned "Use the search function" responses.

You will find this on ANY and ALL Public forums, in response to questions and statements that are clearly covered to great extents, and easily accessible if one would just look for them.

It all comes down to one simple premise. You believe your time is more important, more valuable than my time. In fact it is not. Your time is no more important no more valuable than anyone else. It is as though some people feel entitled to things, people feel entitled to an answer. In reality no one in entitled to anything, no pain no gain.

Finally you seem to think that "use the search function" is not a valid answer. When it fact it is. If it makes you feel better, every time you see a response that goes something like "Use the search function" pretend that it says "I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know it's been discussed before. Perhaps if you try searching for the answer, you may get lucky."

[fgay trader]

Originally posted by S_B_R
...pretend that it says "I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know it's been discussed before. Perhaps if you try searching for the answer, you may get lucky."

Actually, it's more like "I'm 200% sure that this question has been asked and answered a hundred times in other threads. If you search the forums, you will definitely find an answer".

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by fgay trader


Actually, it's more like "I'm 200% sure that this question has been asked and answered a hundred times in other threads. If you search the forums, you will definitely find an answer".

Yeah that will work too, but I was trying to be as un-condescending as possible. ;)

[high_jeeves]

High_jeeves, and the rest of us, so called "Gangsters",

Sweet! I appear to be the lead ganster then? I would like everyone to start calling me "Sir", "Boss", or "The Don". If you dont, I'll have to kneecap you...

::snicker::

--Jeeves

[PainNSuffering]

This is not about a cheat board nazi. the reason I see people beeing told to pull thier head out of thier arse and search is quite frankly becase they ask dumb questions.
This is a cheat program yes, but it is put on a geeks OS, and managed by geeks (I mean that in the nicest possible way geeks). Geeks did not become the all knowing computer god they are by asking what is a tcp/ip connection? what does it do, where does it go? how do I decode a UDP packet? how do I install a modem. They got thier knowhow from work, either by playing with it till it worked (good fix for anything you encounter in life) or by looking up what went wrong. in the case they truly could not find an answer, you as a question. in a question, you fully explain what you are asking.
Most of the people here don't want to do that. they want to ask thier question, as badly worded some times as "it don't work for me what woul,d u do?". I had some experiance in linux before Seq, I installed it on my PC about a year ago, just to play arround and learn some. used it as my main OS for about 2 weeks. then ran a duel boot system of red hat / win98 for about 2 months. finaly deleted linux as I did most things through win, and did not like to having to reboot to get to a game.

I have yet to have a problem with Seq that was not already addressed on these boards. I just had to do a little leg work. but by far the hardest part of my leg work was finding 5 post of people asking for the same dam thing. luckly most of them have a link to another post with accurate information.

so for the sake of any one who would actualy use the search feature. USE THE SEARCH FEATURE!!!! if not I know where you live, and I will be coming to get you! (might work on some of em)

[fgay trader]

Originally posted by high_jeeves
I would like everyone to start calling me "Sir", "Boss", or "The Don".

Can someone please change High_Jeeves' profile status to "The Don" instead of "Avatar of Veeshan"? hehe... Then instead of the "Use the Search" you could start saying "Don't go against the family!"

[Alwayslost]

/rant on

I'd like to say this is one hell of a good laugh. I'm a recent new user of SEQ and like many before, I started by reading the boards and having a clear idea of what I was up against, then I posted a couple concise questions after I couldn't find the answers with the search.

I have been treated with respect and in turn, after I installed Mandrake 8.2 and SEQ, I came back to discuss ideas and features I thought would be popular. One was implemented and Mr. Suspicious is working on the other (changeable icons for mobs on map). This is what makes this project so great, people working together.

SBR hit it EXACTLY on the head. Those that get the "USE THE F(&@*%) Search button, are those that have been to the site less than 10 times, and have not BOTHERED to do any research on their problem. In short, they believe that this board is here to serve them, not to participate or interact with.

There is MUCH good information already on the board, ALONG with all of the supporting comments within those threads. In reality you (anyone needing help) would get MUCH more information from a search that finds an existing thread than the single answer that you would get if those people were to take the time to type in the answer for the 45th time that month.

These Board Natzis as you call them are actually incredibly helpful if you give them the respect they have earned. They are not a vending machine where you plug in a coin, turn the nob and get the answer.

If you take the time to READ about what you are confused about, 95% of the time you will find your answers, it's those remaining 5% of problems/issues that they are more than willing to help with.


/rant off

[z26o]

People who don't search make baby Jebus cry!

[S_B_R]

http://seq.sourceforge.net/images/info.jpg

[PawnOrc]

Do a search on the board police. Read their trash. Then look at their total posts. Ask who is helping and who is just a load of bandwidth.

[high_jeeves]

Once again PawnOrc.. if you arent going to help people, dont bitch about how other people do.. I've helped 2 people today.. how many have you helped? 0? Wow..

I've helped probably 10 people this month... you? 0? Wow!

Probably 100 this year.. you? 0? Wow!

I'm tired of defending myself to people who dont do what I do, and think they can do it better! I think this thread is a perfect indication of the attitudes here, and on other boards. 2 people who have a problem with how things work here, neither of whom participate in this board other than to complain. 7 people who dont have a problem with how things work here, almost all of whom are active participants in ShowEQ either through dev, filters, docs, maps, or help.

--Jeeves

[Alwayslost]

LOL so NOW you are an advocate of the search button...

Hmmm... lets see....

Do I search to find an answer to my problem? Or do I search to see who the people are that tell me to search to find an answer to my problem?

Or maybe I can do a search on the names of those that bitch about the people that tell others to search for the answer to their problems... I'll bet it all started with your first post and being told to use the search button....

(Since I have you on the couch now and the therapy session has alredy begun...) When did the first nightmares of Search buttons climbing into the bathtub with you begin? And can you show me on this Dollie where that Search button touched you?

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by PawnOrc
Do a search on the board police. Read their trash. Then look at their total posts. Ask who is helping and who is just a load of bandwidth.

Look at how many of those threads should never have been started... If only the poster would have searched first, or even looked at the threads on the front page. Again, who is waisting bandwidth?

[S_B_R]

When I read PawnOrc's post in This thread (http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1517), I was almost overwhelmed by the Irony of it... I just had to post it here. :D
Originally posted by PawnOrc
Teach them to fish and feed them for life.I guess he doesn't understand that just giving someone the Answer is exactly analogous to giving "them" the fish.

/boggle

[jtkirk]

#ifndef EASILY_OFFENDED
#define MY_OPINON

Sorry to burst the bubble of everyone having fun bashing on the n00bs, but the 'learn to use a search engine' response is unfriendly and adversarial.

Maybe that's what some people here want out of thier bulliten board experience...

I see a lot of self-ego massaging going on here (people gloating about how technically astute they are, blah blah blah, "I rewrote EQ entirely in Palm assembly, and made it a bit-wise palandrome, and then got kicked out of mensa for using the f-word..."). From the thread I've read so far, It doesn't seem like the "helpers" are doing it out of altruism. It looks more like egotism.

If you help someone out, and want them next time to use a search, at least tell them what query syntax you used to find the answer for them. Then maybe suggest that they modify that search to find more information.

You'll come off sounding a lot less like an asshole.

#endif //EASILY_OFFENDED

[high_jeeves]

To repeat again...

I answer questions here pretty much every day... some questions I have answered many times... I dont want to waste my time answering questions whose answers are already readily available. If YOU want to do that, more power to you.

I consider people who come here and say "ShowEQ doesnt work, how can I fix it" or "Why doesnt my linksys hub work" or "Which version of QT do I need" or "mobs dont animate correctly anymore"... There are questions which are answered time and time again.. and in MOST (90%+) of the cases, the answers can be found in places like the README, FAQ, and INSTALL.newbies. Instead of reading, people want to come here, and have us fix all of their problems for them.

We are here to answer legitimate questions (of which there are quite a few), and we do so quickly and politely. This is the way most (if not all) technical message boards on the internet work.

If you want to change the way this community works, feel free.. answer questions for people, write documentation, code. If you just want to complain about the way this community works, please go away.


--Jeeves

[S_B_R]

Let's just call it "Cost of Entry" and be done with it.. It seems that the way this forum works has gotten hundreds (probably thousands) of people up and running with SEQ. I would venture to guess that the number of people who are not helped here is FAR FAR exceeded by those that have been helped. Form a support system point of view, I see no reason to change how things are done here.

If someone is offended by a response they receive then fine let them complain about it. Then maybe we should remind them of how many people were able to get everything working, with the resources available on this site. If that gives those people an inferiority complex then maybe they are inferior.

[jtkirk]

You're confusing a soft demeanor (how easily offended people are, how they take criticism, timidity, etc...), with inferiority.

My initial response when I got the standard "Learn to use a search engine" response was to dig in my heels, and defend my initial action. Even though I was wrong to not search first, the response made me LESS inclined to admit my mistake to myself and to everyone else. If I didn't have as thick a skin as I do, I'd probably have left the board, thinking to myself that these people are outright mean.

I don't see a whole lot of point to taking an adversarial approach, except perhaps to make you (the responder) look a little superior, at the expense of the person who asked the question (the 'inferior' one). People's feelings get hurt that way. I'm kind of suprised that people who claim to be so intelligent are so quick to do something so obviously unkind, and further that the bystanders to the exchange are so quick to applaud the cruelty. Your in-depth knowledge of some obscure piece of freeware does not make you 'superior'. Nor does your lambasting of someone publicly (even if anonymously) demonstrate your superiority.

[high_jeeves]

You make 2 assumptions here:

1) That we are interested in whether or not people leave these boards. Quite frankly, I dont think any of us are. There are a variety of reasons here, including maintaining a small user base, why we would not be interested in this.

2) We are doing this because of some sort of kind/unkind issues. We are not. I work at a company with lots of people. This company has internal documentation on how code works, why it works that way, what it does, and how to set it up/get it to work. If everytime somebody new came on board, everyone had to spend time at the company explaining everything contained in this documentation to that person, they would get very upset. It actually happens quite frequently that somebody asks "how do i/where do i" type questions and they get the response, go take a look at this document. It isnt unkind, its just the way it is. People who dont work well in this environment get much worse than flamed, they get reprimanded, and eventually fired. The situation here is even worse. At work, people get paid to put up with a certain amount of repetetive question answering. Here, people do it in their spare time.

I'm sorry it caused you to dig your heels in, but I think that you will find that of the X people per day that get told to go search, the VAST majority of them do, and then solve their problem. SOME of these people even post apologizing for not searching, and explaining how they found their answer. This is the way internet technical communities work, particularily in open-source, when nobody is getting paid. If you get so offended by somebody telling you to do some work for yourself, perhaps the issue lies there, and not with the person telling you to go search.

--Jeeves

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by jtkirk
You're confusing a soft demeanor (how easily offended people are, how they take criticism, timidity, etc...), with inferiority.I am doing no such thing. a Soft demeanor person would accept an answer of "use the search function" and they would actually go use the search function. A person that has an inferiority complex would see such an answer as an attack against them, and try to defend their reason (or lack there of) for not using the search function. In the end ANY definite answer could be seen by this person as an attack.

Originally posted by jtkirk
Even though I was wrong to not search first, the response made me LESS inclined to admit my mistake to myself and to everyone else. So somehow this is our fault that you are "LESS inclined to admit my mistake to myself"? This is called a delusion, and if you're going to delude yourself how can anyone ever answer your question satisfactorily? When the answer is in direct conflict with this delusion?

If you're not willing to accept an answer then don't ask the question.

[jtkirk]

Well, I write code for a living too (albeit mostly server level data transport kind of stuff, on windows machines, and pretty rarely UI), and I came very close to leaving the board. No big deal, I'd end up just treating this project as any other tool that I use on a frequent basis, taking mostly for granted.

In spite of some of the attitudes I've seen people take around here, I have an inclination to start looking at the code, assuming I can get myself past the learning curve of figuring out the important moving pieces. Of course, I'd have to sacrifice some time from either work, wife, or EQ to do so. I'm not sure which would win out. :P

I get the feeling there are a lot of people who've been lurking for awhile like I have (I first compiled this app many months ago), and possibly have a lot to contribute. I don't think it's the case that smart people ALWAYS ask smart questions. Giving those people an adversarial environment, just so that you can dissuade the really stupid questions, seems a little like throwing away the baby with the bath-water.

Unless you think you've got enough help, and that you don't need any more (and never will).

I realize there's a big leap between telling someone how to find a config setting, and imagining that that person will be able to give anything useful back to the project. But stranger things have been known to happen.

To be fair, the responses I've gotten on the developer forum are far less snotty than the ones on help or general. But I don't think a lot of people troll the waters in the dev forum as frequently as they do the others.

[jtkirk]

My prior response was to high_jeeves, incidentally, not to the hasty post S_B_R just put up.

S_B_R, you just did exactly what you accused me of - showing an inferiority complex by responding in a knee jerk fashion to a view that differs from your own.

You took two sentances out of context, and made some very liberal changes to the rest of my content, in an effort to flame me.

I guess it was too much to expect that you would actually read what I said in the context I provided.

There's a big difference between "use the search function", and "Learn to use the search function", in connotation. The former is a directive on a short lived, and easy action. The latter implies ignorance about something very basic. It implies stupidity on the part of the person you are addressing.

And yes, it is your fault, and that of others who take this predatory tone on message boards, that reasonable and normal people get offended. Not offended due to any potential content that you might provide (even if it is an opposing viewpoint), but for the sheer unmitigated and unwarranted hostility with which you deliver that content.

So to you, instead of saying "Please be nice", I say "Learn not to flame people". Because you really do sound like an asshole to me. And a stupid one.

[Cryonic]

Hostility??? "Use search" or "Learn to use search" aren't hostile. Telling you to "go use the <insert expletive here> Search" is hostile. The problem is that forums like this and other Net medium remove emotional content from the message. That leaves just the information of the message behind which is given emotional content by the reader. There is no body language or vocal intonation in text, yet we are used to having it when dealing with others, so the message is interpreted from that standpoint. You're in a bad mood, so the message seems hostile. You're in a good mood so the message just seems to point out something you didn't think of doing.

On the Net you either have a tough hide and get over things and don't take them personally, or you have a soft hide. In which case you will take offense and will be flayed alive by others for your response.

I find it hilarious when a persons response devolves into nothing more than childish insults (this is a general statement, not directed at any poster in specific) when they are given the answer to their question and they don't like the response.

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by jtkirk
Because you really do sound like an asshole to me. And a stupid one.

So now we reduce ourselves to name calling? Well you can go down to that level but I am done with this thread.

I took nothing you said out of context, the context is clear. I am defending my position, my opinion. That is not the same as a question that could have been answered (admittedly so by yourself) with a simple search. You admitted, to yourself, that you were wrong, but when it came to actually admitting it publicly you chose to defend it. That sir is no ones fault but your own, no one forced you to defend a position that was indefensible. That was a decision you made of your own accord.

As I said before, if you find "Use the search function" offensive then just imagine to yourself that it says "I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know it's been discussed before. Perhaps if you try searching for the answer, you may get lucky."

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by Cryonic
Hostility??? "Use search" or "Learn to use search" aren't hostile. Telling you to "go use the <insert expletive here> Search" is hostile. The problem is that forums like this and other Net medium remove emotional content from the message. That leaves just the information of the message behind which is given emotional content by the reader. There is no body language or vocal intonation in text, yet we are used to having it when dealing with others, so the message is interpreted from that standpoint. You're in a bad mood, so the message seems hostile. You're in a good mood so the message just seems to point out something you didn't think of doing.

On the Net you either have a tough hide and get over things and don't take them personally, or you have a soft hide. In which case you will take offense and will be flayed alive by others for your response.

I find it hilarious when a persons response devolves into nothing more than childish insults (this is a general statement, not directed at any poster in specific) when they are given the answer to their question and they don't like the response.

here here! Thank you Cryonic. Whenever I post "Use the search function" there is no Malice behind my response. No alterier motive. I'm simply tired of reading and answering the same questions over and over again, and I want that person to know the topic has been discussed before. The person posting the question might not find the answer very quickly the first time they are told to search, but the next question will undoubtedly be answer much faster by searching first and asking questions second. ;)

[jtkirk]

And again, the point is lost by taking a snippet out of context.

My main pont from the start has been that you can let people know about the info they can search for, without sounding like an arrogant SOB in the process.

If you take the time to answer an easy question for someone who is stuck (even if it was just posting a link for that person), it doesn't take much more effort to sound sincere about wanting to help.

Communication is as much about tone as it is about content.

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by jtkirk
And again, the point is lost by taking a snippet out of context.

My main pont from the start has been that you can let people know about the info they can search for, without sounding like an arrogant SOB in the process.

If you take the time to answer an easy question for someone who is stuck (even if it was just posting a link for that person), it doesn't take much more effort to sound sincere about wanting to help.

Communication is as much about tone as it is about content.

How did I take that fact that you called me an asshole out of context? I guess I'm not privy to the pleasant context of the word asshole.?

But, like I have said and Cryonic side "use the search function" is only hostile if you want it to be hostile. It's no more or less hostile than "Learn to use the search function". What tone where you trying to convey when you called me an asshole?

Story time:
My brother in law is an avid player of EQ, more so than I am. Over the last year or so that we have been playing together I've learn that too many emoticons is never a bad thing when I am talking to him in game. For example, we'll say my Brothers name is "bob" I get a tell something like this:

Bob: "Hey, are you in a group yet?"
Me: "Yep, I jsut got one, going good so far"
Bob: "you got room for one more?"
Me: "Yep we got 1 spot open"

Here is where the "tone" in which I talked to him changes in his mind. To him when I said "Yep we got 1 spot open" he heard(read) "Yeah we got 1 spot open but it's not for you". So I have to remeber who I'm talking to and put emoticons in and the exchange would go something like this.

Bob: "Hey are you in a group yet?"
Me: "Yep! :), I just got one and it's going good so far! :)"
Bob: "you got room for one more?"
Me: "Yep! :D We got 1 spot open ;)"

If I say it that way he seems to understand the "tone" I ment it in.

The moral here is the tone is what reader wants it to be...

[PainNSuffering]

when it comes to tech suport you get what you pay for. in this case, I am supprised they are not doing house calls.

This program is free. The people who work on it are kind enugh to set up a message board, and take time out of thier lives, at no componsation to them selves to support the product yet you think they do it badly by telling people to look to what is already written up about the question they asked. not only wasting thier time, but thier $$ in bandwith.

I work in tech support. we have documentation that answers 95% of our customers problesm. yet so that they do not have to look up the answers or do any work them selves they pay us $30 a month to do it for them. Even though I get payed 15/hr to answer dumb questions I still get tired of telling some one how to set up thier e-mail for the 4th time on 20 min.

perhaps you guys should add a pay pal link for every quest that is asked over again, $5 per repeat question. just put a disclamer on a banner that if you see a pay pal link on your thrread, either pay the cash or search as the question has already been answerd.

[monster69]

Originally posted by jtkirk
So to you, instead of saying "Please be nice", I say "Learn not to flame people". Because you really do sound like an asshole to me. And a stupid one.

lol


Originally posted by S_B_R
So now we reduce ourselves to name calling? Well you can go down to that level but I am done with this thread.

Since most of the posts I have made on this board have been fairly useless anyway, I'd like to step up and fill in here.


jtkirk,

You seem to represent, in a nut shell, the typical liberal, whine about the shafting I am getting, why don't we all just get along, you shouldn't ever say anything that may offend anyone, politically correct bullshit asshole that has driven this country into a shitty state where decisions like "You can't recite the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom" are almost acceptable.

I don't mind going to the lower level with you because people like you make me sick. You "read" emotion into plain text that was never intended. You EXPECT people to give you information, and do it in a friendly tone. You get your feelings hurt by something that may have indeed been a harsh response, may even should be a harsh response.

I for one don't give a flying monkey shit if you get your feelings hurt. This is not a flower smelling, hug your neighbor, be kind to the old lady on the street community. This is a TECHNICAL community, where certain standards of knowledge and ability are expected.

Take your pansy ass whining to a board where somewhere cares because I sure as hell don't, and no one else here has time for it.


Monster69

[Alwayslost]

jtkirk,

/boggle


Monster69,

ROFLMAO!!!!!


PainNSuffering,

/agree Every new poster to this board should pay $20 up front and each "Start a New thread" costs $5

[BlueAdept]

Hell it is very common for any software bulletin board to tell users to USE THE SEARCH BUTTON.

Check out the documentation to one of the more popular firewalls (www.smoothwall.org). They dedicated 30 some odd pages telling the end user to RTFM (seriously) and to use the search button before posting ANYTHING. (It really is pretty funny for those who do know what they are talking about).

You might as well flame them too since they have the same philosophy. I can also provide you with about 20 other sites too who do and say the exact same thing.

[RSB]

Even if people are a bit bitter they still give an answer. Just because you don't like the tone of their voice, it doesn't change the fact that the answer is COMPLETELY valid.

If your in your office and people keep walking by your desk and asking what time it is you might answer the first few people but eventually most people will say "LOOK AT THE DAMN CLOCK!!!!". Which really is the answer to their question. Now you are complaining that you've been told to do the legwork yourself siting the fact that it would take less time to just say "7pm". Honestly the others are correct. The only people that complain about the RTFM or USE SEARCH answers are those that contribute ZERO to the boards. And generally they don't contribute to any boards.

Its those same type of people that post "GOT A QUESTION. PLEASE HELP!!!!". then when they get a few people pointing them in the right direction they either don't post anything or just say "Figured it out. Thx". When they really should post up what fixed their problem even if it does make them look a bit stupid so that others can USE SEARCH and see that they aren't all alone.

[TuxedoTex]

Actually, one of the reasons I posted a question without searching first (which fortunately for me, had not been answered yet) was because I'm used to 95% of message boards search functions not being worth a damn (ezBoards, anyone?).

So please don't jump to the conclusion that newer people that ask questions without searching because we want a quick answer, or that we think our time is worth more than anyone elses. There's simply some of us who are used to search buttons that are about as useful as tits on a boar.

[Mr. Suspicious]

because I'm used to 95% of message boards search functions not being worth a damn

It's exactly the opposate, 95% are usefull and only a small 5% are not.


(ezBoards, anyone?).

Have tried the ezBoard search function in the last year? You'll find it very helpfull.

[BlueAdept]

Originally posted by TuxedoTex
So please don't jump to the conclusion that newer people that ask questions without searching because we want a quick answer, or that we think our time is worth more than anyone elses. There's simply some of us who are used to search buttons that are about as useful as tits on a boar.

Yea I buy that...and Microsoft doesnt collect any personal info on its customers either.

I have found that very few of the boards have poor search features. Even so, why not try it first before posting the question and wasting the 10 to 1000 peoples time reading the question that has been answered many times before? Sure sounds like the person who doesnt search IS lazy, thinks his time is more valuable than others and/or is because they want a quick answer.

[RSB]

Ummmm

So please don't jump to the conclusion

You tell us not to jump to conclusion when by your own words

I'm used to 95% of message boards search functions not being worth a damn

Isn't that just what you told us not to do? You jumped to the conclusion that the search feature was not usesful. When in fact it is normally because the person using search doesn't look into the features of the search like having a "+" infront of manditory words or quotes around exact phrases, blah blah blah.

In many case I'm sure (yes I'm jumping to conclusions) what happens when people use the search they put something in like

redhat packages get 2 or more pages of post and say to themselves "Bugger this, it will take me forever to find what I need I'll just ask".....that is if they even bothered to to use search at all. Where if they thought a bit and narrowed the search with one more word "required" then they would get less than a handful of hits that the could look through.

[Aelorean]

Actually, I don't mind being told to search the bulletin boards. However, I do know that sometimes I have been told to do so when searching did not answer my question.

My suggestion would be that if someone answers a question with "use search", they should give the keywords for the search, and then test it and make sure that it actually calls up the proper information.

Otherwise, in my opinion, it's just better not to reply to the post in the first place. No response is better than a confusing or non-helpful response in my opinion.

[high_jeeves]

But then, again, you are asking us to do all the work for you. I dont know about some of the other people here, but I have read EVERY (literally) post, since these message boards went live. I know when information is out there, and when it isnt. Again, it isnt my responsibility to identify the correct search terms to find an answer. Try searching a few different things, you will find what you need..

It's just like google.. when you search, and dont get the page you wanted, do you send an email to google telling them to provide you with the correct search terms? No! You try again with slightly different search terms... thats just the way search works... that isnt MY job.. thats YOUR job..

--Jeeves

[fgay trader]

Originally posted by S_B_R
{...} So I have to remeber who I'm talking to and put emoticons in and the exchange would go something like this. {...}


Ok, new rule! Everyone now must start posting this: "Use ;) the :) #$%^@ :p Search function! :D "

/snicker

[devnul]

The search engine might actually be useful if when people tried to use it they didn't get dozens of less than helpful post by self-important 'authorities'.

If people would answer the question or NOT then the new person would either figure it out OR NOT, and if they did the search feature might actually be useful.

I REALLY don't see who benefits from a 'use the search engine moron' post. It makes the poster look like he's trying to compensate for some inadequacies and it makes it difficult for the people who actually TRY to use the search engine.

But I suspect the people that make posts like that know all this and could care less. They just get off on acting superior. Like being able to figure out how to set up a linux box and a little c knowlege makes us superior.

I only bother to post this in case someone never thought it through and just made posts like that because 'every one else did' and they thought it was 'cool' and would make hay with the devs.

But there's no reason at all to make those posts, if you REALLY have a hardon about people using the search feature then stop cluttering up the content, so that when they actually try there's something there.

And remember, no one has ever looked like a misanthrope for NOT posting.

No one is obliged to provide information. Also no one is obliged to make themself look like a 14 year old trying to impress the cool 18 year olds.

dn

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by devnul
The search engine might actually be useful if when people tried to use it they didn't get dozens of less than helpful post by self-important 'authorities'.

If people would answer the question or NOT then the new person would either figure it out OR NOT, and if they did the search feature might actually be useful.

I REALLY don't see who benefits from a 'use the search engine moron' post. It makes the poster look like he's trying to compensate for some inadequacies and it makes it difficult for the people who actually TRY to use the search engine.

But I suspect the people that make posts like that know all this and could care less. They just get off on acting superior. Like being able to figure out how to set up a linux box and a little c knowlege makes us superior.

I only bother to post this in case someone never thought it through and just made posts like that because 'every one else did' and they thought it was 'cool' and would make hay with the devs.

But there's no reason at all to make those posts, if you REALLY have a hardon about people using the search feature then stop cluttering up the content, so that when they actually try there's something there.

And remember, no one has ever looked like a misanthrope for NOT posting.

No one is obliged to provide information. Also no one is obliged to make themself look like a 14 year old trying to impress the cool 18 year olds.

dn

Hmm I could regurgitate what has already been stated before in this thread (and in others) but why bother you've done it for me...

One thing I will reiterate once more is the fact that I get no personal gratification out of telling people to "Use the search function". I'm just trying to help someone find the answer...

[high_jeeves]

devnul,

Your logic is horribly flawed. The search engine doesnt come up with many useless posts because of the RTFM posts. If comes up with many useless posts because people repost the same question over and over again. Those threads will NEVER get answered if the 5-10 people who post the RTFM posts just ignored it, since those are the same 5-10 pople who EVER answer posts on this board.

It is rediculous that people like you, who NEVER answer questions on the boards have ideas like this (and contrary to your perceived cleverness, this has been suggested many times before). If you want to avoid the RTFM posts, they YOU start checking these boards as often as the rest of us, and YOU start answering everyones repeated questions before we tell them to RTFM.

I'll say it once again, either be a productive member of these boards (like those of us who actually help people here), or go away. If your sole purpose here is to complain about the rest of us, you are not helping here at all.

--Jeeves

[gopher_bin]

um.
STFU.
Thx.
Bye.

[devnul]

"It is rediculous (sic) that people like you, who NEVER answer questions on the boards have ideas like this"

I have answered. But no I don't live on these boards.

My logic is impeccable. If you stop posting 'search you moron' posts, the search feature WILL in fact be more useful and more used. Regardless of how many times a question is asked adding a dozen 'search you moron' posts for each question certainly makes it less likely the search would be fruitful.

And of course makes it less likely they will post with a stupid question.

But then there's less opportunity for someone to make themselves feel oh so clever by belittling someone else.

Which is the whole point after all, isn't it.

If you REALLY want to stop 'stupid questions' from being asked and you REALLY want to promote use of the search engine then you make one sticky post in each thread which ONLY says.

"Questions which have already been answered WILL NOT be responded to. Use the search engine. Any post that DOES respond to a question which has been answered or is in the FAQ will be DELETED. This is not done to be mean. It is done so we keep the SNR high in this forum."

Problem solved eh mate?

But that will not happen.

Because the point is not to get people to use the search engine, or encourage people to help themselves.

The point is self agrandizement by belittling people who ask a question. Which would not happen if there was a big sign telling people what to do and no positive OR negative response when people ignored the convention.

Anyway carry on. I certainly expected flamage for daring expose the emperors clothes, and was not dissappointed. I didn't expect behavior here to change, not that it makes any difference in the world to me. But if one person goes, 'hey, I never really thought about it, but you know he's right on the money', then it's worth it.

It's about being a human being someone would care to know. It's very simple, really.

dn

[Mr Guy]

Your logic is flawed at the part where you claim searching won't find the right answer, because they'll see a "search first" before the relevant posts.

The painful truth of the matter you may be right about, even if you don't realize HOW you are right. The truth is that we are too kind. Maybe if we stopped giving the right answer after telling someone to search, and actually DID delete their threads people might start searching.

As it is, if you wear your flame suit and wait it out, someone will post the right answer, usually two or three replies down.



Before you truly prove it to me though, that flaming is completely pointless, answer/do these three things for me:

1) If Zaphod, Ratt, and the other devs continue to work on the code, do we care if anyone else gets the answers they need?

2) Use search and find all the posts I've made. "Mr Guy" Show me the post I've made that tells someone to search and doesn't at least give a clue what the right answer is.

3) Be more general in your search, find the topic in which someone is ONLY told to search, and no one breaks down and gives them the answer.



I'll be waiting.

[high_jeeves]

This is my final response on threads like this, they waste time, and provide nothing.



The point is self agrandizement by belittling people

What exactly would you say you are doing here, Mr. "Higher Morale Ground"? ALL you do on these boards is flame, atleast I spend MOST of my time answering questions.



It's about being a human being someone would care to know.


You seem to have misunderstood my reason for being here. It certainly isnt to win some virtual message board popularity contest.

I'm going to go spend my time answering questions on these boards, in whatever way I see fit. Please feel free to continue to flame me for doing so. Instead, I would challenge you to spend some time helping other people here. If you are only capable of complaining about how other people help, it will surely be shown by your activity on these boards.

--Jeeves

[S_B_R]

I would Love yo see a Sticky thread at the top of this forum that said something like
Here's the FAQ. If it's not in the FAQ use the Search Function. If you can't find it using the Search Function, then and ONLY then post your question along with the Keywords you used in your searchThat would be GREAT! Now if I were doing this for some form of selfgratification why would I want such a thing? If I was in it for some kind of power trip I would never want something that would help my victims before I got a chance to berrate them. You said so yourself:
Originally posted by devnul
The point is self agrandizement by belittling people who ask a question. Which would not happen if there was a big sign telling people what to do and no positive OR negative response when people ignored the convention.But you know what? I would Really really really like to see that sticky thread put up there! Ratt, Zaphod and the other Devs don't know me or owe me anything, but if I could ask them for one favor I would ask them to put that sticky thread up there.

[Cryonic]

Big Bolded Sticky at the top of all the forums, not just Gen Discussion. I see no problem with this, just who gets the control to delete? Maybe just the devs.

I know I don't just post RTFM/Use Search just for kicks. Like high_jeeves I've read this forum and the old one at hackersquest daily. I've seen postings about SEQ being broken on patch day with threads started by people when there were already 5 or more already at the top of the forum.

[Mr. Suspicious]

Can we now change the topic to "US rules, Canada Sucks" and vice versa please. Please?

[devnul]

Well I didn't think I'd find any reason to post on this thread again, but Mr Guy had some reasonable comments.. one of which was NOT:

"Your logic is flawed at the part where you claim searching won't find the right answer.."

I did not say 'won't find'. What's the point of misrepresenting? But certainly I assert that if the SNR was kept down there would be less ppl posting dumb questions because they were more able to find the answer. Do you really disagree?

But the rest is reasonable:

"The painful truth of the matter you may be right about, even if you don't realize HOW you are right. The truth is that we are too kind. Maybe if we stopped giving the right answer after telling someone to search, and actually DID delete their threads people might start searching."

Lol so you think I 'accidentally' came across some truth?;)

The answer should be given, or not. And usually, in the case of most questions.. not. Since they are in fact already answered.

Everyone sees the REAL message communicated when someone opens their trap and says they know something but are not telling. And the message is all about the poster's personality and nothing about what he knows.. if anything.

"1) If Zaphod, Ratt, and the other devs continue to work on the code, do we care if anyone else gets the answers they need?"

No. In fact I should quite prefer that they not answer any quations that do not strike them as interesting and that they know have already been adequately answered. Their time is too valuable to be answering the same questions over and over again.

But actually ANYONES time should be too valuable to answer the same questions over and over again.

"2) Use search and find all the posts I've made. "Mr Guy" Show me the post I've made that tells someone to search and doesn't at least give a clue what the right answer is."

My comments were general and were in no way intended to offend anyone whose behavior was not described. You are right if I attacked you I would have been wrong. Fortunately I did not. If the shoe does not fit you please feel no obligation to wear it:)

"3) Be more general in your search, find the topic in which someone is ONLY told to search, and no one breaks down and gives them the answer.

I'll be waiting."

Well I hate to keep people waiting so here ya go:)

http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1100&highlight=search

Look I made a point. Someone gets it or they don't. HJ took it personally and that's fine by me.

Please carry on your regularly scheduled bunny stomp if it please you. (the general 'your' Mr Guy not you specifically:P)

dn

[Mr Guy]

Since we all seem to agree we'd like this topic to go away, I'll try and be brief after this one response.

I just couldn't let it go with his reply. The silliness of the link he posted in response to my challenge was so inane as to be deliberate. I'll grant you, it TECHNICALLY met the requirement: Indeed someone asked a dumb question, he was told to search, and the answer did not appear in the thread.

However, it was a three post thread, with the first and third being the thread orginator, and he FOUND THE ANSWER AFTER SEARCHING. The thread's total length was four hours, from after lunch EST to before most people get off work. He simply found the answer by doing what he was told before someone could give it to him.

Secondly, I didn't say Ratt and Zaphod should be answering questions. What I asked was, If they still develop, do we care or WANT others to learn to use ShowEQ?

I could give you pages on why the answer is, "No, we don't." Don't worry, I won't. The point that we, and the others are making, that you are missing, is that we answer questions out of the goodness of our hearts. Each person we explain ShowEQ to is one more reason Verant should shut us down. As ShowEQ gets easier and easier to use, we will begin to have more and more trouble. ShowEQ COULD be distributed as an RPM no doubt or with a full GUI install. We'd piss off more than a few people, with whom we've had an uneasy truce for nearly a year now. (PoP may change this, they like to break things to keep ShowEQers from spoiling their surprise parties)

The intellegence test is necessary to keep Verant at bay and we'll keep enforcing to make sure Verant STAYS at bay. So the term you want isn't self agrandizement, it's vigilantism.

[S_B_R]

/agree Mr Guy

As I said back on the first page of this thread: "Let's just call it 'Cost of Entry' and be done with it..."

[devnul]

"The silliness of the link he posted in response to my challenge was so inane as to be deliberate."

Your requirements demanded just such an example. It EXACTLY met your requiements. Whether the guy found what he was looking for later or not is not relevant, of course people keep trying until they find a way.

Which is just my point. Who is behooved by acting like a 12 year old? It doesn't deter anyone really, it just makes you look bad.

If you DON'T want someone to know something then why not simply refrain from answering?

"I could give you pages on why the answer is.."

Well of course. There are every example you might care to find. I never said no one was helpful. You are the one who challenged me to find a counterexample to your assertion. Which I did.

I certainly would not make such a silly challenge to you:)

"The point that we, and the others are making, that you are missing, is that we answer questions out of the goodness of our hearts."

If this were so more than not then the snide self important deprecatory comments would not exist.

"The intellegence test is necessary to keep Verant at bay.."

I understand this, Mr Guy. However it is not necessary to look like dicks in order to impede information.

And as YOU pointed out, the current result is generally people DO get the answer they are looking for. But only after someone belittles them, which is pointless; in a lame attempt at puffing themselves up which only the most socially imperceptive fail to see.

If the point is to help OR if the point is to impede, the behavior described is not productive. Further it has the opposite effect of the one intended on all levels. Mainly all it does is make the respondent look like an insecure ass.

I have no personal interest in the matter. I'm just presenting a social best practice, since the original poster had a point, but in his pique apparently didn't feel like bothering to explain it fully. I certainly do not expect everyone to change their behavior:) I don't really care if they do or not, really. But it might make sense to a couple that never thought it through before.

dn

[Dedpoet]

Ugh, please lock this thread! Must.....stop......reading.......thread.

-Ded