SEQ unrelated: shopping for a new MB.

[fgay trader]

Springing from my last hardware thread: http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=860

Ok, I finally decided it's time to upgrade my P3 600 to something more "this century". I've got the some junk I can reuse (GeForce4 TI4200, 60GB 7200 HD, nice case, Lan card, etc.) but things like RAM, motherboard and CPU are still on my "to buy" list. RAM is dirt-cheap these days and I'm thinking 512MB PC2700 should be enough for now. CPU's and mo-bo's are another story.

As far as MotherBoards, I haven't been following hardware news and price changes, so I'm pretty much clueless as far as which brands/models are the best bang for the buck. I'm definitely set on an Intell P4 2 GHz CPU (AMD I just don't trust and Xeon is out of my budget ;)).

I've seen some reviews on the web, but couldn't find any sites with comparitive analysis by brand/model. Any links or comments from personal experience would be much appreciated.

[Dedpoet]

Get yourself a nice KT333 board and an Atlon XP processor. 512MB Crucial or Corsair RAM. You'll be screaming. My main EQ box is the Epox board in the review below with an XP1800 processor and 512MB of aforementioned Corsair RAM and a GF4 Ti4400. Zoom. About 250-300 US$ for the board and proc, depending on how fast, and $160 or so for the RAM. Pay the extra for the quality RAM - it makes a difference.

http://www.hardware-testdk.com/test_show.asp?id=975

[S_B_R]

ok, one other desicion you have to make since you are going with intel is, Rambus, or DDR ram.

Rambus gives you more performance but the memory itself is a little more expensive and the Rambus based motherboards are a little more money as well.

DDR gives you still good performance (not quite up to Rambus), the memory is cheap and easy to come by, and the Motherboards ares are cheaper than Rambus. There are also 3 DDR P4 based Chipsets, the intel i845e, SIS645d, and one from Via the name of which escapes me.

Rambus based P4's basically have only 1 chipset to choose from the i850e.

Asus has very good options for each memory type: Asus P4T533 (http://usa.asus.com/mb/socket478/p4t533/overview.htm) - Rambus based board Asus P4B533 (http://usa.asus.com/mb/socket478/p4b533/overview.htm) - DDR i845e based board Asus P4S533 (http://usa.asus.com/mb/socket478/p4s533/overview.htm) - DDR SIS645dx based board
My personal recomendation would be the P4S533 it's been getting great Reviews and if you are into overclocking it has many OC-friendly features. I beleive NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com) carries all the boards I have mentioned as well as both kinds of Ram and all the usually P4 speeds.

One point of warning makesure you get a P4 with 512k cache. :)

[high_jeeves]

I'm actually about to do an upgrade also, and I think S_B_R hit the nail on the head:

If you want ultimate performance, and you are willing to pay:

P4 2.26+ (greater than 2.26 gets REAL expensive)
Rambus RDRAM1066 memory (more expensive than DDR, but noticeably faster).

If you are looking at an excellent system, not quite top of the line, but a little cheaper:

P4 1.8+
DDR2100+

I would recommend away from the VIA chipsets, I've had nothing but trouble with them.. I dont have experience with the SiS ones, but I've never had a problem with the Intel ones.

Some good MB companies (others may be good, but these are the ones I have experience with):

Asus
Abit
Giba-byte
Soyo
Intel - Good MB, but they are reference, so usually a bit slower than 3rd party ones.

512K Cache is a must, and higher FSB is better (there is a 2.2 400Mhz FSB, and a 2.26 533Mhz FSB for example).

Although Athlons do run faster than equally (and above) clocked P4s, I've had heat/minor compatibility problems with them (compatability may have been due to Via chipset tho)... I went through an Athlon phase, but I've moved back to Intel new.. a bit more reliable.

Check out these sights for good pricing info:

www.pricescan.com
www.pricewatch.com

--Jeeves

[Chuin]

I have a question to add to this thread...

I own a Compaq Deskpro 450MHZ that has a CPU that looks like a cartridge standing on edge....

What CPU type would that be...?

What would be the highest replacement I could hope to get for this CPU... I have no fear in flashing the BIOS if that will increase the speed of a new processor or make the BIOS support a newer CPU.

Chuin

[high_jeeves]

This really isnt enough info.. If I had to guess, I'd say its a PII or III, your best bet is to check out the compaq site. You probably have minimal upgrade possibilities.. For ~ $100 you can get a new low end MB and Celeron at 1Ghz or so, its probably a better solution...
--Jeeves

[S_B_R]

If it's a PII then get a new Motherboard, Processor and Memory. If it's a PIII then you can upgrade to 650MHz.

I might be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure the last Slot type PIII was 650Mhz. If I am I'm sure someone will correct me... ;)

[Yueh]

I have a slightly OT question. What are you guys running to say Rambus is faster than DDR PC2700? Other than the marketing hype Rambus bandwidth is NOT as high as DDR unless you are using multiple channels and the latency sucks rocks. If these MoBo's do use multiple channels, then you'll need a window fan in the box to keep it cool for the net benefit of something like 10% higher bandwidth in a memory system that is hit 10% of the time. If you can see a 1% speedup in an application I'm impressed.

Just a curious Rambus hater :D

[S_B_R]

I'm not a proponent of Rambus by any means. But I thought is was common knowledge that rambus was faster. Anyway here's (http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MzIzLDI=) a link to an article at HardOCP. The article is about Dual Channel DDR but it has Rambus and regular DDR are in the benchmarks for comparison.

- edit -
The i850e is the Intel Chipset supporting Rambus. The rest of the Chipsets listed are either DDR or Dual Channel DDR.

[high_jeeves]

I actually generally dont like rambus either, but it is faster... bottom line... Intel's new Dual DDR will be faster WHEN it comes out.. but right now RDRAM1066 is the fastest out there...

Here is an excellent article on memory technologies and speeds.. on this site, you will also find a good article comparing various RDRAM1066 MBs, if you are thinking about going that route.

http://www17.tomshardware.com/mainboard/02q2/020520/index.html

--Jeeves

edit: Added link

[Yueh]

Right, perfect illustration. Those are raw memory bandwidth graphs so you can take the % benefit of one over the other and multiply by 10% to get your system performance increase in a normal gaming environment.

But, you have to compare apples to apples. On those graphs; A dual channel DDR system beats a dual channel Rambus system. A single channel DDR system beats a single channel Rambus system. Rambus costs 4x as much to make so, had it made it into the market without all the company execs going to jail :) It would have eventually cost 4x as much.

The only reason it's the 'fastest thing out there' is because Intel bet the farm on Rambus and didn't develop any fast chipsets for DDR so the consumer had no choice.

Ok, enough ranting :) Just a concerned memory designer out to inform the public ;) Don't buy Rambus systems unless you have all the memory you will ever need when you get the MoBo ;)

[high_jeeves]

I agree that DualChannel DDR WILL BE faster.. but as of right now there is no release date for it on desktop class systems... until then RDRAM1066 is faster than any single channel DDR system... Once Dual-DDR comes out (probably Q3/4), it will take the crown..

But that is a game that can be played forever with computers...

--Jeeves

[S_B_R]

Originally posted by Yueh
Right, perfect illustration. Those are raw memory bandwidth graphs so you can take the % benefit of one over the other and multiply by 10% to get your system performance increase in a normal gaming environment.

But, you have to compare apples to apples. On those graphs; A dual channel DDR system beats a dual channel Rambus system. A single channel DDR system beats a single channel Rambus system. Rambus costs 4x as much to make so, had it made it into the market without all the company execs going to jail :) It would have eventually cost 4x as much.

The only reason it's the 'fastest thing out there' is because Intel bet the farm on Rambus and didn't develop any fast chipsets for DDR so the consumer had no choice.

Ok, enough ranting :) Just a concerned memory designer out to inform the public ;) Don't buy Rambus systems unless you have all the memory you will ever need when you get the MoBo ;)

I must be seeing a different graph than you are... the one I see shows:
P4 i850e RDRAM PC800 = 2765(int) --- 2758(fp)
P4 i845e DDR PC2700 = 2531(int) --- 2525(fp)

I'm not trying to defend Rambus here either, I'm in the process of building a new system and it's a DDR based P4. On the other hand I'm not trying to mislead anyone either, I'm just stating what the graph shows...

[Yueh]

Good Lord! You're right, I read that graph exactly backwards. Guess it wasn't a good example ;) Too many sessions watching marketing types espouse new technologies with no application, I think it's rubbing off! You are right, the fastest possible memory subsystem out there right now is Rambus based. But, like you said, that's like saying my skyscraper is taller than your skyscraper, you'll just put up a dirigible mooring mast next week :)

Technology wise though, the theoretical sustained bandwidth between the two technologies is essentially the same. The difference is Rambus is limited, by design, to a very narrow bus running at very fast clock rates. DDR runs at normal FSB speeds with an arbitrarily wide bus. BUT the latency to start a burst is huge for Rambus due to it's insane clockrate and it runs at a large multiple of the bus speed so it isn't scalable as the system speeds up.

DDR is much more sane technology to achieve the same end result. Doesn't allow you to bully around the industry with your patent portfolio but makes a heck of a lot more sense for the same performance.

Anyway, now that the thread hijak is totaly complete. I'll let you go back to buying a motherboard. The Abit KX-333 kicks some serious butt for the money right now :)

[RSB]

One thing about the AMDs. Yes they run hot but they are designed to. If I could find the whitesheet the 1800xp is
rated to run up to 90 degrees cel! Normal operations is about
65 degrees. A good cooling system is a help. I've got a custom
case that I've put two 5" fans that are mounted on the side panel of the case. One blows right over the CPU, North and South Bridge and my GF3. The other is ducted to circulate air over my two 40g drives as they seem to get very hot. Then the actual tower case has a fan at the top back and bottom front and I have no problems 8P.

For mother boards I have 2 ASUS MB and they are pretty good. I did get annoyed that they are VIA chipset and there is a problem with the VIA AGP->CPU bridge driver put out in the 4in1 drivers when dealing with some GeForce cards (basically don't use their driver). A nice performance boost can be got with a few of the boards if they have a IDE Raid controller built in....just find out if there are installation problems with XP/W2K with them. My main box is running 98SE (yea yea I know) because the raid controller is RAID 0 and the only work around xp installs ends up with the system in RAID 5 (mirrored) which does me no good really.

Other motherboards manufactures that I like are Tyan and Abit