Audio & Stuff

[steveb]

So Im sitting in QH waiting for a spawn, and I'm exploring the SEQ options..and it strikes me...I don't know what like 90% of this stuff does. My thought was... 'wouldn't it be nice if SEQ would <beep> at me when the spawn pops'...

This lead to an hour long search of these boards for a) any documentation that describes what SEQ does or b) any discussion of the audio capabilities.

Ok..<flame suit on> Is there any real documentation? How doe audio work? Can you point me at a thread?

S

[Bartok]

Alerts are what you're looking for.
Haven't personally done anything other than the default behaviour myself though.

[adenine!]

To get the audio alert, you need to do two things. First, configure your filters. Filters->Edit Filters. I assume you're waiting for Hadden and Pyzjn specifically. filters.conf is well-commented, so you can decide which section you want the spawns under based on those comments. If you just want the alert enter them below the [Alert] tag:

[Alert]
Name:Hadden
Name:Pyzjn

Or in whatever section you want them. Save the file and close the editor. Second you need to configure the alert commands. ShowEQ can either do a system beep on alert or run a command. If you want to play a certain audio file, you'll want to run a command. Make sure Filters->Use Audio Device is checked and your sound card is working. Next, select Filters->Audio Commands->Spawn... and you get a dialog box with a command. Replace /usr/local/share/showeq/spawn.wave with whatever file you want to play.

[steveb]

Well, first, the system does play just .wav files successfully, so the audio system is working. However, when I set audio on, i hear nothing, and when I add the lines as you describe nothing seems to happen.

I might add, that this all could be avoided if there were decent documentation for the system, describing how the thing is programmed. We are creating an environment wherein we all spend 10,000 hours explaining how the system works, instead of 10 writing it up.

S

[Cryonic]

Comments in the source code don't count as documentation on how it is programmed?

[steveb]

Sorry, I used the wrong term. I wasn't referring to Technical Documentation, the comments in the source code are critical for that. I was referring to User Documentation. Frankly, as a user (although I have programmed in C for years), I'm not interested in HOW SEQ does what it does first. I'm interested in WHAT it does.

If the operation of the app is described inside the source code, then it should be a simple process to cut and paste it to an 'official' User Manual. Otherwise, im sure that most did what i did -- downloand it, compile, link, and execute it without ever editing a line of source code -- not something im competent to do at this point, and something that would undoubtedly get me into more trouble than I can handle :)

As things are, I look at the options and menu items, and im completely in the dark, and worse, left to cause other people pain explaining something that could be very simply explained by someone that knows in a short user manual.


S

[Mr. Suspicious]

We are creating an environment wherein we all spend 10,000 hours explaining how the system works, instead of 10 writing it up.

You just volunteered to making a user manual =)

[steveb]

That thought actually occurred to me, Suspicious. I have done a great deal of writing, and I do enjoy it. HOWEVER it's probably not the best idea to have a complete SEQ neophite write the User's Manual. Rather, I would assume, it would be infinitely preferable to have a long-time, and already educated user do so. Frankly, given the amount of time it would take for me to educate myself in all the product, it would probably take me more time to learn the system than it would take an already proficient user to simply write the manual. Given the amount of time that SEQ has been around, and it's popularity, I'm rather surprised this hasn't happened already. :)

S

[Ratt]

So... you want someone else to do the work is what you are saying?

[Cryonic]

Would this be considered another cost of entry to using SEQ? If so, then I don't think it needs to be documented.

If not, maybe I'll put some effort into it since I have the latest version.

I quit EQ some time ago, I just like to keep up on this since my friends like to come and eat my bandwidth.

[high_jeeves]

I think it hasnt happened for 3 reasons:

1) The demand really is quite low for a manual. This is the first post I have seen asking for one in a VERY long time.

2) The application is fairly small and easy to use. I think you will find that after minimal use, you will be quite proficient.

3) Rate of change. The application changes fairly frequently, and often in non-trivial ways. I think it is a much larger job than you may beleive.

Now, I am not suggesting that it shouldnt be done, but these are the main reasons it hasnt. Please post a URL when you have it completed.

--Jeeves

[steveb]

Wow... Im impressed...got the attention of the masters :)

Ratt... LOL... sure..why should I do work when I can get someone else to do it :P (JK) :)

No... honestly... I've done this before, and having someone who is ignorant of the capabilities of a product write the documentation is generally not the best idea :P

Cryonic, If having no documentation is the 'cost of entry' then what have we against making it lesser cost, and easier to use? I guarantee if more people understood exactly what SEQ does, it would be a better product (I still haven't figured out how to do audio btw...)

Tell you what. If I can get help understanding the system, I'll be more than happy to assist in editing/writing the manual...but I can't do it alone.

Finally, Jeeves... thanks for posting! My response would be...I think that most users are, as always, just interested in getting the software WORKING, and if there was a manual, im SURE we'd get TONS of downloads...

I've been using SEQ for like two months, and I consider myself pretty astute..and I don't understand Filters AT ALL...nor probably 80% of the product functionality. It's just so friggin wonderful to see the display..that's why 90% of the users get it...the maps and the spawns...imho =)

Finally as regards rate of change. True of course. Equally true is that there is a LARGE amount of the app that does NOT change...true things are being added...also true that much remains the same and is documentable (is that a word? :))


S

[Ratt]

I feel the need to clear up a common misconception (My email box has been filling up with similar statements, so I'm thinking what I'm about to say has been forgotten):

Anyone who requests making SEQ "easier to use" running under the false assumption that we want you to be using the product. We don't.

I'm going to quote part of an email I sent to someone who was complaining that the help desk section isn't very helpful:



Ahh, now this is a good and common complaint I hear... guess what, you do tech support "for a living," like you said. You get PAID to do it. You WANT people to buy/use your products, so they
pay your salary. Neither I, nor the others on the message board get paid to help you. Nor do we get paid for you to use SEQ.

In fact, I'd prefer you NOT use our product. The less people that use our product, the _BETTER OFF I AM_ because the less people that use it, the less Verant cares about it. The less Verant cares about it, the less work I and others have to do to fix it.

THERE is your difference. We don't want our customers. We hate them. They suck. WE DO NOT NEED OUR CUSTOMERS. You do. You need them to stay in business. THAT'S why you don't tell them to piss off for being too stupid to use a mouse. That's why I _CAN_ tell my customers to piss off because they are too stupid to use the search feature. If the customer leaves, it HELPS me.

If you want to Pay-Pal me $100, I'll answer some of your questions. In fact, I'll set up SEQ on your box for you if I can telnet/ssh into it. But until someone sends me phat lewt/cash, I have exactly zero incentive to care whether you get SEQ working or not.

> > thats what a help desk, board or line is for.

That's what YOUR help desk, board or line is for. That's not what THIS one is for. This one is to debug NEW problems with SEQ, not old and moldy ones. Not to reshash the SAME problem, over and over. _MY_ help desk is to make a collection of problems that are all encompassing, and have them readily available to anyone and everyone at the touch of a button.

When people start posting the same shit, over and over, it causes noise in my nice clean database of problems, and makes it THAT much harder to find the REAL answer.


Don't take this TOO literally, there is a lot more contextual information that is missing from that, but I think it gives everyone a general idea of the differences of SEQ as a product and a product that is sold and meant for general consumption.

SEQ is NOT meant for the newbie. SEQ is NOT meant for people who do not have an honest desire to learn about their environment and how things work.

Is it going to get used by inappropriate people? Sure... but the cost needs to remain high so the casual user can not, or will not find the effort vs reward ratio worthwhile to pursue.

[Cryonic]

That's what I thought. So, no manual from me. Can reschedule that time to dealing with real work, like Lightwave (www.newtek.com).

[high_jeeves]

Cryonic, If having no documentation is the 'cost of entry' then what have we against making it lesser cost, and easier to use? I guarantee if more people understood exactly what SEQ does, it would be a better product (I still haven't figured out how to do audio btw...)


As Ratt said, here is the basic false assumption... We arent out to get users..

--Jeeves

[steveb]

I certainly see your point, guys. I think that the response is, in reality, coming from a different place than what one might assume on first blush. If you REALLY didn't want users you'd only make the Open Source available to DEVELOPERS, or better yet, don't make it Open Source at ALL! The whole basis and philosophy behind Open Source code is to make it availalbe to the world, (to develop AND to use) so the world can benefit from it, not just those who develop and understand it.

Now, having stated this, it is also equally true that the developers have absolutely NO obligation WHATEVER to support the product. You guys have gone WAY beyond that mark simply because there has been such a demand for it...simply because it meets a great and fundamental need. Hell..if you could ever get Verant off your backs, and make a successful WIndows version, I absolutely CERTAIN you could sell it for >$100 per copy, and make a BOATLOAD of money. Too bad that has about the same chances as a lvl one wizzie in CT :P

Anyway. I suspect that if you were honest, you really DO want users. The product was designed TO HELP PEOPLE. If all it ever did was sit on ten peoples machines there isn't a whole lot of fulfillment in that..and you guys wouldn't get any positive reinforcement for all the hard work you have done. What you DO NOT want to do, however, is spend 7/24 answering the SAME dumb questions over and over and over. Waste of your time and of the preciously little time resources you have. I submit, therefore, that you DO want users, you just DONT want questions... and headaches!

Documentation would go a long way to solving that problem..given that you don't have to write it of course.

P.S. I totally understand the HelpDesk POV stated above..that's why these forums are so critical..trying to get the newbies to help each other :)

S

[high_jeeves]

I submit, therefore, that you DO want users, you just DONT want questions... and headaches!

This still isnt true. I'm not a dev on this project (although i have done some coding on it in the long-long past). But I certainly know that, as Ratt stated, more users = more difficulty in keeping the project alive. That is why the cost of entry is so high. That is why I dont agree with the scripts that have been written to make it a click and install process. I think all these things, while great, eventually will lead to more time where ShowEQ doesnt work, and more time where the devs, and many of us who have branched our own code base have to spend fixing the product.

Most of the repeated questions that we get come BECAUSE the project has been made very complicated to install ON PURPOSE. Things like building with gcc3, building with qt2.3.2-mt or higher, no rpm/ebuild/install scripts/tarball, have all been done, quite on purpose to make the barrier to entry higher (although some of these things also have technical implications). If you wander over to the posts made in the past few days by DrJones, these are EXACTLY the people that we dont want to be able to use the product, and these are EXACTLY the people that wouldnt be able to use the product if it werent for the dumbing down that has been hapening lately.



Documentation would go a long way to solving that problem


I understand what you are trying to say, but take it from somebody who has been posting on these and the previous boards for well over a year now:

People dont read documentation for this project. With the FAQ, walkthrough, INSTALL, README.libEQ, INSTALL.newbies. We still get questions CONSTANTLY about information that is in these files. I dont think a conclusive manual will change this situation, it will just add another document that people ignore when they come to post questions here.

--Jeeves

[steveb]

Hmm

Well I must admit, Jeeves, your points are well founded. SEQ is NOT a 'software product'. It's actually a very interesting situation -- having a software entity that actually thrives because its used as LITTLE as possible. In fact, I do believe this is the first instance of such a thing that I have ever seen, and I've been doin this since the 70s :)

P.S. Is there a PayPal address we could use to contrubute actual $$ to the people who make this all possible?

S

[high_jeeves]

Yep, it is certainly a unique product.. I do HCI/Usability development for a living, so statements like my previous one go against everything I do for a living, but for this project, I think it is the best way.

There may be a donation addr, but as a word of warning, the ONLY devs that code on this project are Ratt, Zaphod and fee (to the best of my knowledge).. So dont donate to anyone else who comes along with a paypal addr :)

--Jeeves

[lostpacket]

crap! I was about 1/3 of the way from finishing an in depth full color Flash presentation on how to install, run, configure, and update SEQ.

I've spent weeks on this and now... ah well, at least I know how to run my own box.

All the instructions were wrong, mind you. Anyone trying to configure SEQ on a TRS-80 color computer would've shot themselves by hour 3 of the presentation.

Should there be a movement for disinformation? Those of us that can use the search button or just cvs in could be the only ones to use it from now on :)

"ssh into your linux box by going to Start>Accessories>Notepad and type HELLO [enter]. Then type GET SEQ. Wait until it downloads and compiles (no user intervention needed) and the screen says "SEQ COMPLETE - Press Alt+F13 to start".

Do not touch or use you computer until you get the above message as it may cause a redundant data stream to be looped into your nanoticular sub math co-processororator and you'll have to start over"