SEQ Publicity

[e@tme]

How nice of this chap. Absolutley Spanking. I like the mod, but to put where he gets the maps from is another matter.

I dont know if anyone else cares about this, But I have a feeling that this is going to spell disaster (and a few account bannings probably)

New UI with maps (http://pub23.ezboard.com/fgraffeswizardcompilationfrm41.showMessage?topicID =234.topic)

[high_jeeves]

I'm not too worried about this, its not like you get any ShowEQ features with this. Hopefully they just copied all the maps, instead of pointing people to the ShowEQ CVS. If they are pointing people to the CVS, that could be a bad thing.

--Jeeves

[e@tme]

I took a look at the thread, and the designer of the mod says that he has taken the maps from seq.sourceforge.net.

This quote was taken from the thread :


actually, the maps are editable in their raw format. The maps come from seq.sourceforge.net on their cvs. Modifications are submitted to them, we download and process the maps as a change is made.

This quote was taken from the UI mod readme file :


Original .map files used as a source for the maps were created by various and sundry people, including the patrons of seq.sourceforge.net, users of various log-based mapping programs, et cetera.

Another thing that I think is rude (but don't know if anyone has a leg to stand on, is that all of his maps have been labelled in the bottom left (maybe) corner with his web address :((

Plagurism (sp) is not good huh - Yeah ok - is a great mod for those that want it / need it, but to highlight seq and to plagurise (sp) the maps when he could of left them un-marked is downright rude, considering the amount of time people spend in developing this wonderful (if not Uber) application.

/rant off (oops)

[high_jeeves]

Didnt see the cvs part, hopefully that wont lead to thousands of new posts by morons. As for:



Plagurism (sp) is not good huh - Yeah ok - is a great mod for those that want it / need it, but to highlight seq and to plagurise (sp) the maps when he could of left them un-marked is downright rude, considering the amount of time people spend in developing this wonderful (if not Uber) application.


This is an open source project. The upside is that anyone can work on it, the downside is that it is free take parts of it.. (with certain restrictions).

--Jeeves

[e@tme]

Hehe, yeah i know that its open source, i guess i kinda slipped into /rant mode (must remeber to re-map that hot-key)

[Ratt]

Open Source doesn't mean no copyright, that would be Public Domain. Look at the SEQ sourcefiles :)

I'm not sure how that applies to maps, but I suspect the same rules apply. You can redistrubute (and copyright your portion of) the code and what ever programs you make out of it... but you can't "pass it off as your own."

[high_jeeves]

Yes, I know.. That is what I meant by my:


(with certain restrictions).

It appears, that credit is being given tho.. My understanding of the GPL is that it applies to all code and data, so it would apply to maps (which are program data) as well.

--Jeeves

[fryfrog]

i don't think anyone can fault you for using them, they are released under the GPL. though, hopefully it won't draw to much undue attention to seq.

i think what we are trying to avoid is a large influx of users. perhaps asking you NOT to credit us would be the way to go... any thoughts from the actual devs?

get credit and possible attention? or no credit and just deal with the semi-plagerism to avoid undue attention.

my vote would be for the removal of credits, personally :)

[e@tme]

Firstly, thanks to Fatal for responding to this post. No offence has been meant with my /rant earlier, and I stand by my comments regarding the quality of the mod.

I think this will go someway towards showing the big V what the subscribers actually want from the new interface - given time.

I do however want to help to protect the time and investment that the developers are putting into seq.

I do not for a minute see that Verant will integrate any seq functions into Everquest 1, but if we (the subscribers) make interface modifications that are useful, and they prove to be overwhelmingly popular, then I wouldn't be surprised if we see mapping (and in some ways) a cut down seq that works within the interface for Everquest II - just a thought :)

I for one will certainly be making good use of this mod, as there are times that I play when it is not possible to use seq. It would be cool to be able to integrate some seq functions into the mod, and I am sure that at some point in time, this may become a reality (be it through proper channels or not)

/em lives in a pipe dream reality

[Ratt]

Honestly, what I would like to see is another site like Mapfiend...

Let me give it some more thought... perhaps, if someone out there still has Mapfiend scripts, I can put up a like it. I would, actually, like to get some personal credit onto maps for the map makers... I'm not sure the best way to go about it though.

If I set it up here on the SF site, someone would need to keep it nice and managed though... and a map editor would be great... if someone is making/has made one.

I have no plans, and none of the other active devs have plans as far as I know for a map editor.

Bottom line is, I'm more than happy to move forward with the maps for EQ Toolbox, we just need to find some balance. I think splitting the map base would not really benefit either of us as much as keeping the map base consistant would.

[domesticbeer]

when I saw this post on the monkly business board I downloaded the mod to see how he was doing the maps. Personally, after looking at it all he has done is has gotten ahold of png's of the maps and is only displaying the png files.

In my eyes all he is doing is telling VI "Hey, look at me I am using ShowEQ!!!!"

[fryfrog]

i was gonna say that, but you beat me to it... "hey look, we are using showeq's maps" is far more accurate. out of curiosity, i'd be willing to bet you are getting TONS of downloads for this mod. has vi done anything or mentioned anything?

i've always thought it would be easy to have a map making and map reading "skill" in game that would be like scrolls/spells. you could then buy, trade, copy and sell "maps" that people had worked on. perhaps have a mappers kit that would allow more than 1 map to be combined... kind of like the fog of war goes away in warcraft style games. would be neat :)

[casey]

just to nitpick, but if you are using showeq .map files in your project, within your documentation released with your mod you should include a copyright statement for ShowEQ (since your png maps are a derivitave work), and a copy of the GNU Public License Version 2 should also acompany the work.

[fee]

To interject, alot of these maps were contributed by anonymous people who submitted them to the old K-R-G/mapfied site. These maps were then taken from mapfiend and added to showeq. In these cases no copyright was asserted to my knowledge. I don't know what kind of statement mapfiend had for submitted works.

I digress though, these maps are used in many many places. Showeq and the other programs are well known to VI and the players.

I honestly don't know who gets the credit for them. Giving the showeq project seems logical enough. I do not see the publicity for the maps being any danger to the project. I also do not see any difference betweem using EQAtlas, Castersrealm or Showeq maps.


Fee

[Mr. Suspicious]

Fatal:
ok. Then we're back where this thread started.

I have no issues giving proper credit where credit is due. If you want the publicity. I can give it to you. Which is what this thread was about.

Read the GPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.txt) and follow the rules set forth in it. The GPL isn't negotiable.


Fee:
In these cases no copyright was asserted to my knowledge. I don't know what kind of statement mapfiend had for submitted works.

Non was made, Mapfiend itself also didn't attach any copyright, nor other statement to his scripts and placed them up for "free" download (they're down now tho, as the domain doesn't exist anymore)

Edit: I rechecked it before posting their png and ai scripts via Google-in-cache so I'm pretty sure about it (Just tried to find it again and now I cannot find it again in google-in-cache, found copies in the Internet-way-back-machine (http://www.archive.org/) tho, so you can check for yourself: www.k-r-g.com)


Fee:
I also do not see any difference betweem using EQAtlas, Castersrealm or Showeq maps.

There's a HUGE difference *smiles*

- ShowEQ: GPL

- EQAtlas: HANDS OFF! Maps Usage Statement (http://www.eqatlas.com/mapusage.html) sais it all.

- Castersrealm: Fully copyrighted, so without written consent hands off!

[fryfrog]

but the question is, are all the maps included under the GPL? if they were originally gotten from krg (which most of them were) and krg did not really attach any copy right (though ALL works written by anyone are considered copyrighted unless that is specifically waived).

so, are the maps technically under the GPL or not? i would say that some of them are and some of them are not. any that were written by the seq team originally should be, but any that were written by other people and submitted to mapfiend INSTEAD of cvs... would not really be under the GPL? or am i wrong?

[casey]

I have no issues giving proper credit where credit is due. If you want the publicity. I can give it to you. Which is what this thread was about.

its not a matter of publicity or "we want our names on it". Its a matter of legailty. If the maps are in fact licensed under GPL, then your use of them requires a couple things on your part (read the license FAQ at gnu.org). One of the legal requirements of deriving from a GPL work is the copyright junk.

that said, the copyright/license on most of the maps is an interesting question, since we have no idea who made most of them, or what terms they were originally distributed under (afaik anyway). My statements reflect an assumption that we are distibuting them under the GPL.

[Mr Guy]

The maps are not covered under the GPL and should not be in the CVS because many if not most of the maps were not submitted by their original authors. You just can't give someone elses work to the world because your product uses them.

[Ratt]

If you want to get really technical about it, I don't think the "original authors" (of which I made many of the maps, at least Pre-Velious, BTW) can copyright the work either, as it's Verant who designed the artwork for all practical purposes.

If anyone has a concrete claim, it would be them. However, they are bereft of their copyright claim due to all the fan sites using maps of the place... they'd be hard pressed to show they've tried to enforce THAT copyright... thereby making it effectively public domain.

However, that does not mean I do not want to see the authors credited for the maps. But tracking down all the authors is going to be problematical. As such, I think we should do it moving forward, each contributor to a map should be appended to previous contributors.

[fryfrog]

sounds like a plan :)

so should we say that the current maps are not under the gpl or are under the gpl? :)

[Yueh]

so should we say that the current maps are not under the gpl or are under the gpl? :)

Under the table? :D

[PawnOrc]

You guys need to get a professional opinion on intellectual property issues around SEQ. Some of what I have read here is clearly in error. There are some very, very serious issues related to SEQ, Open Source and derivative rights.

Before you advise any third party what to do, you better get an IP attorney to draft an opinion for you. If you don't know what "induced infringement" means you better back off on the legal advise.

Just my two cents worth - I don't want to see any of you pulled into court by Sony over this latest move. This is the kind of thing Sony will file over.

SEQ - Small change - UI mod.s - Big deal to Sony.

Be smart. Stay out of this one.

[Mr. Suspicious]

Be smart. Stay out of this one.

That UI mod has nothing to do with ShowEQ, other then the maker of the mod uses the maps found in the ShowEQ CVS, which he can do according to GPL (if he follows the rules). Nuff said.

If my neighber takes my chainsaw (which I told him he could take out of the shed to use whenever he wanted *obviously to cut trees*) and then starts chainsawing humans in half... does that make me liable for damages?

BTW: the Mod-maker does not _have_ to use the ShowEQ CVS maps, he can also use the mapfiend ones (still found on various places around the internet) and for instance the maps used with Xylobot (downloadable from http://www.xylobot.com and also the same format)

[Mr Guy]

Not the best example there.


If your neighbor comes over to your house and borrows your shotgun and shoots his wife with it, yes, you are partially responsible. Not with murder, but accessory to murder, negligence, and possibly negligent homicide (at least in the US).

I suppose the difference though is the gun has gun control laws to go with it, while the EULA has never been tested in court anyway, and therefore can not be considered a legally binding contract.

[Mr. Suspicious]

Not the best example there.

Actually, it IS the best example, and I did use the chainsaw as an example rather then a gun for a very specific reason.

Anything can be used to commit a murder, I shudder at the thought of the first trial where a pencil manufactorer (or a pencil sharpener manufactorer) is charged for providing a weapon to someone that uses a pencil to poke out someone's eye =)

Question is: is it designed to be used that way? The ShowEQ maps and map formats are not designed to be used in the way the Modmaker uses them (How do I know? Because the map formats were around before the UI thing was around, so it cannot be designed to be used with the UI). That he uses them (like Xylobot uses them) the way he does is completely his own responsability and not the responsability of the makers of the maps, or those who distribute them (ShowEQ's CVS in this case).

[Ratt]

Regardless, the official stance of Verant is that the UI Map Mod for EQ is "acceptable" and not a violation of the EULA, and hence no one will get banned for using it.

Just thought I'd let ya'll know.

[PawnOrc]

OK, I tried.

So guys ... who owns the art work on which the SEQ maps are based and from which they are a derivative work?

Seriously - drop this whole thing. Stay out of anything that competes with Sony in the maps arena.

Just stay in the weeds guys.

[Cryonic]

Then stop using the maps PawnOrc because SEQ wouldn't be very useful without them and they were made with tools outside of EQ (log parsers and SEQ itself mostly).

[PawnOrc]

Cryonic:

I am not talking about SEQ. I am talking about people here moving into the use of SEQ maps elsewhere. Two different things.

SEQ maps are made "in game." If you don't understand why that is important, then you don't belong in this discussion.

Everyone:

I am totaly serious you guys - stay out of this area. Don't help anyone take material made using SEQ and use it elsewhere.

[Ratt]

Originally posted by Fatal
Ratt,
I've heard folks saying they petitioned and were told it was not against EULA. I;ve also heard there was a decent sized thread going on the gm boards about it, but I haven't seen any think posted.

Are you just repeating what others have said or is this first hand information you have received?

It is first hand information imparted to me... if a GM or Guide is saying it's against the EULA, they are wrong and need to check with their superiors.

[devnul]

I think Fatal's maps are a great boon from any angle.

From VI's perspective if people use these maps they will be less inclined to go to the significant effort to set up SEQ. Which is good.

From SEQ users perspective it is also good.

However it's just a guess, but while I am sure they appreciate the credit I don't think anyone would mind if you neglected to mention SEQ.

dn

[qdogz]

Yes folks,

I heard it from a GM.. First hand.. The MAP MOD is not against EULA.


I was cautioned, tho. that Policy can change.. But as it stands at this time, it is acceptable to use the MAP MOD.

If you want Verification, you can use the Contact Your GM link on the EQ Website, or just /petition and find out for yourself.

[PawnOrc]

This is my last try. I am becoming a pest.

I recommend you delete this thread and end any discussion of helping third parties use maps generated with SEQ.

The EFF idea is a good one and I will contribute under an assumed name since I am so hated here:)

Thank you

[fryfrog]

pawn, i wouldn't worry about creating a new account. there are far more people here who are more hated than you (the people that are refered to as "search nazi" or the "helpers" depending on which side of the post you are on). i'm also sure they appreciate your warning.

unfortunatly in the current "world" innocent people end up being held accountable for really fucking retarded things and this could be one of them (as well as almost anything you do in the world today). i took you warning to heard, and don't really plan on discussing this sort of thing ;)

[Aurelius]

PawnOrc, you've been around since Jan. You should know the drill by now. You give your opin and you take the chance of setting someone off. But you're never gonna sway the minds of those already made up. Thicken yer skin a bit to survive the inclement weather. hehe Unnecessary talk about any outside source being used in game is not the best of ideas while being in game. But here, talks cheap, ideas rampant and egos grow to monstrous proportions (some deservedly hehe).