Exp STILL NERFED after September 6 patch

[fee]

Using the exact same methodology from yesterday, I have measured the new experience gain. Refer to this thread for the details http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1870


I am posting this information to address two points in the patch message.


- With that in mind, we've undone the penalties for killing low blue NPCs, and instead added an additional group bonus to those who fight NPCs that are reasonably close to the group's level.


The first part of this is incorrect. For a level 60 player, all blue con mobs less than level 55 now award only 75% of their previous experience value. See table.



mob lvl |Pre Sept 4 patch |Post Sept 6 patch |% of pre Sept 6 exp
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
47 198810 149107 75.000
48 207360 155520 75.000
49 216090 162067 75.000
50 225000 168750 75.000
51 234090 175567 75.000
52 243360 182520 75.000
53 252810 189607 75.000
54 262440 196830 75.000
55 272250 398165 146.25
56 282240 440293 156.00



As you can see, mobs 54 and lower are rewarding only %75 of their previous worth. I believe Verant made a mistake when they attempted to fix the previous mistake.


- We're confident that you're going to find that the additional risk pays off *extremely* well.

I feel the added bonus on level 55 mobs is outstanding. Clearly this was the intent overall.


Too recap the important points from yesterdays thread.


How the server updates the client about Exp:

1) When a player zones/logs in. The cumlative value of experience the player has earned is transmitted to the client along with all the other player information. This is known as the CharProfile or PlayerProfile Packet. It contains every detail of your stats to your inventory. I captured the above data by zoning in, logging my exp value from this packet, killing and changing zone to get the update value. Simply subtract the 2 and there is your actual exp gained.

2) when the player earns exp, the server sends an update that moves your exp bar. This update does not contain the updated cumlative value but a value between 1 and 330. This value equates to exactly how many ticks are in the exp bar.

So for the math freaks.

1% exp equals 3.3 ticks ( note that since fractional ticks do not exist that the % is rounded ) This rounding can equate to a significant error reported by the % value in the client.

Using showeq to examine the contents of the CharacterProfile packet transmitted to client when the client zones, I was able to get the before and after experience for my character. These numbers listed below are provided by the server and are treated as empirical data.


Please feel free to cross-post but please do include a link back to this message board.

Thank you,
Fee
ShowEQ Developer
[email protected]

[Grakun]

fee, but some people use custom ui's that go across the whole screen to be more accurate... are you saying that those really aren't more accurate?

[S_B_R]

Nope they are no more accurate. the server still only sends XP when you get 1/330 (or more) of your bar. just because they make the bar bigger doesn't make it more accurate. It may make it easier to see changes when the server sends them but that's it.

[fee]

Grakun,

That is very good question. I do not have an answer though.


Let me state the following as a primer.

Alternate exp - the AAXP bar requires 15,000,000 exp to fill end to end. That equates to 45454.54~ exp per tick(330 ticks) (~meaning the 54 repeasts indefinitly). Since all classes require 15,000,000 AAXP per AApoint, this per tick value holds true universally.

Prior to the patch AAXP was gained using the following formula:


(moblvl^2) * ZEM * classmod) = A
(moblvl^2) * ZEM = B

B - (A - B) = aaxp reward


The amount of AAXP prior to the patch was always less than what would have been given for LevelEXP.

Prior to the patch a Levell 47 mob would reward the following in exp.

AAXP 132540
Lexp 198810

The amount of AAXP awarded would be 2.91588. (following the rules of significant digits this does not round)

The server would then transmit an expupdate that tells the client to move the bar 2 ticks.

This formula evidently holds true following the patch. In this case the AAXP awarded will reflect the bonus in the above table.

So how does the newUI report the percentage? I can not say for certain, so I will leave it to the reader to determine what if any rounding error the client does not show.

Fee

[BaelinTM]

Idea :

- Verant said they smoothed out the experience gain over all the 50+ levels

- when you wke up after the patch you still had the exact same amount of xp in your bar as you did before

Now it's possible that verant made new tables and then recalculated the experinece values for serveral million characters ut they've stated before that they couldn't do that.

What i think they did is that they left the experience tables and current xp amounts in tact but they added a special modifier on the amount of exp you gain depending on your level ... causing you to progress trough some levels a bit slower (the non 51,54,59) levels and getting a bonus to your exp on the hell levels (51,54,59) causing the effect of a smoother progression trough the levels.

[BaelinTM]

Oh btw fee .... was your above table made with aaxp on 100% or normal xp on 100% ?

if it was made with normal xp on 100% i'd say my theory explains the difference .... especially since it's exactly 75.0 on al the lower levels. (I.E. a hard modifier on xp gained)

Anyone (fee ?) able to come up with a table of xp gained per kill with aa xp on 100% ?

[Mr. Suspicious]

Xp gained per mob is XP gained per mob. It doesn't matter if that XP goes to the AAXP bar or the Normal XP bar. The numeric XP gained in both cases is exactly the same.

[BaelinTM]

Actally it does matter ...

Exp gained per mob is the same but there are a buch of different modifiers applied based on wether the xp goes into your normal xp bar or into your aa xp bar ....

if you're gaining aa xp at 150% normal mob xp (the 150 number is for examples sake) at level 59 and only at 75% at level 60 that''d be screwed up to say the least :)

Also normal xp gets some bonuses they added to get rid of the class xp pentaly ... beore some classes neede 1.2 times as much exp to gaint certain levels ... they didn't change a thing about the exp tables when they removed that pentaly ... they just made all those classes gain xp 1.2 times faster so they leveled at the same speed as a class without a penalty.

When aa xp was 1st introduced this caused a problem cause all of the classes that had a pentalty before were gaining aa xp at 1.2 times normal rate ... that's when they changed the formula that is used to gain aa xp from level xp to make is so that everyone gained the exact same amount of aa XP from the exact same kill.

You say that each mob gives the same amount of xp wether it goes to aa xp or to normal xp ... that's true up untill a point.
You gain the same amount of BASE exp BEFORE the modifiers are applied ...

what i think is that when they redistrubuted the amount of exp needed for level 51-60 they added the 0.75 modiefier to NORMAL level 60 exp to make it seem level 60 is a bigger level.

I would not be surprized at all (in fact i expect is) that is you run the same test done above for a level 59 char instead of a level 60 (that i assume was used) you'll find that the numerical amount of normal xp gained for the lower level monses has a 1.5 modifier (or something close to that) instead of a 0.75 modifier like level 60 ... which should make level 59 seem like it's a smaller level cause you gain xp faster.

Now AAXP SHOULD be the same for everyone ... you need 15mil of xp points to fill an aaxp evel calculated of base xp gained per mob without the whole bunch of modifiers applied to normal exp to compensate for class penalies, the smoothing out of post 50 level and god knows what else.

That's why i'm interested in seeing a similar table as the one in the 1st post with aa xp on 100% before and after ... cause if aa xp really is back to normal as verant claims (and i belive em btw) then you should see that aa xp is exactly the same as before the patch cause they shouldn't have messed with those modifiers.

Personally i think my theory is correct (well duh) but i don't use show EQ myself so i can't make a table with hard numbers to confirm it.

That's why im interested in seeing a table liek the one in the 1st post with aa XP turned up to 100% ... to avoid the new modiefiers they apied to single xp in order to smouth out the 51-60 progression.

Anyway i think i'm starting to repeat myself and this post is getting too long :) .... hope i'm making sense :)

[fee]

Baelin,

Please have a look at my second post in this thread. I describe how AAXP is gained. Because part of the AAXP calculation is the same formula that is used in Level EXP, the amount of AAXP is also less.

fee

[elasto]

I think BTM may have a point.

Each level takes as much or as little xp to fill as they ever did, it's just that while in the level each mob killed gets a bonus or penalty to make it *look like* each level takes a different amount to ding than before.

Hence, the reason why each mob is only giving 75% of the previous xp is that they have made 60 a slightly longer level. If the same test had been done in 59 each mob might be giving 150% of previous to make the level shorter.

Dont forget that with each patch they have changed the number of kills it takes to fill lvl 60, first they doubled it then they brought it back closer to the original again. They didnt really change the amount required at all, they simply changed the xp given by mobs to a lvl 60.

We are talking about two different adjustments here - mobs giving more or less xp in order to smooth out 54&59&60. and mobs giving more or less xp due to being too 'easy' or very 'hard' to the group fighting them

AA xp will only reflect changes in the second, not changes to the first. It is the second we are really concerned with in this thread.

I know you said you replied to all this critisism in your second post, but I didnt understand. Can you please elaborate a little more?

[Gallenite]

Fee:

As much as I'd generally ignore someone who's parsing information, your second set of assumptions are just as incorrect as your first ones.

Parsing doesn't tell the whole story unless you know how those numbers are being generated.

As with your post on the day of the patch, you continue to interpret the data wrong.

People keep telling you (Baelin, in this case, and I forgot the name from the other thread) the part that you're missing, and you keep ignoring them for some reason.

What you're seeing is the effect of the post-50 "hell level" rebalancing modifier. You're forgetting to take that modifier into account. We fixed this the same way we fixed levels 35-50.

From the patch message:

""Penalty levels" have once again been rebalanced such that level 60 is much closer to the half level that it was before, and experience was instead redistributed throughout the earlier levels."

You really should have been using AA this entire time, which isn't subject to hell level modifiers, and you'd find the numbers are exactly the same as before any of the patches.

Or, you might want to try it with a level 59 character, in which case you'd see something to the effect of 20% *more* experience per kill.


If you're going to insist on snooping data, at least take some pride in your work and do it right. :)


I generally wouldn't bother with this, but snooping information, then interpreting it incorrectly, then using it to rile up others really doesn't help anyone.


Best,

- Scott Hartsman
Technical Director, EverQuest

[BaelinTM]

Elosto is getting my point ....

Let me give an example with nummers that might clarify stuff. ( i made up the numbers but you should still see my point :))

let's say that you need 7.500.000 exp to fill up level 60 and 15.000.000 exp to fill up level 59 ...

Now add random farm mob into the example .. well ... when killed before the patch bob gave exactly 100.000 experience.

Meaning you needed 150 bob kills to fill up level 59 and 75 to fill up level 60

Now ... if VI added 2 seperate modifiers for level 59 and 60 to incomming normal xp they could make is so that filling up level 59 takes 115 bob kills and level 60 takes 110 bob kills.

This would mean that it still takes 225 bob kills to go from no xp in 59 to full xp in 60 ... the progression would just be a lot smoother.

I know this example in extremely simplistic but if verant added proper modifiers to all the levels from 51 till 60 thay could have made it so that it took the exact same amount of bob kills to get from no xp in level 51 to full 60 but with a much smoother progression

Now for AA XP.
Here's the formula before the patch you gave:

(moblvl^2) * ZEM * classmod) = A
(moblvl^2) * ZEM = B

B - (A - B) = aaxp reward

If you look closely at what it does is that in compensates so that every class gets the exact same amount of AA XP regardless of class modifier.

The one thing that's imho flawd in your reasoning is that you're assuming they didn't change the AAXP formulla.

I belive they changed the AAXP formulla to compensate for both class modifier AND level modifier so that everyone gets the same amount of AAXP per bob kill regardless of class AND level.

If they did it like this (wich i strongly belive they did) you would end up with a system that:

- would still requipre the exact same amount of bob kills to get from no xp in 51 till full 60, but with a smoother progression

- would still require the exact same amount of bob kills per AA level

- would NOT require verant to mess with serveral million people's current xp levels (wich is something they once said they didn't want to do cause of the HUGE time investment needed and huge probablility of a screwup somewhere)

- would explain the 0.75 modifier you see on a level 60 char's normal xp

[BaelinTM]

Ohh .. looks like a verant programmer took the time to reply while i was typing my previous reply lol (took like an hr to type) ...

Anyway there's your explanation :)

[Amadeus]

It would be nice if at the end of all of these elaborate explanations, if everyone could summarize their findings in a short statement in plain english :)

[King Tordown]

Following the 9/04 patch experience for mobs below your level dropped significantly. It went to about 35% of the experience you were getting on those low dark blue (for level 60 that would be around 46-47th level mobs).

What fee is telling us from his data is that now, any mob within a few levels of you will give a substantial exp bonus and the lower level dark blues will be reduced to an even 75% of the experience you were getting prior to this 9/04 patch.

So, in conclusion...

the experience for soloing or casual players has been nerfed, but boosted back to a somewhat more reasonable level with this post patch, patch.

[BaelinTM]

king is wrong.

here's my short statement in plain egnlish :)

What they did is they nerfed the XP gain in all the 51+ levels except for the 54 and 59 hell levels wich got a pretty big bonus ... the net result of that is that you need exactly as much exp as before to get from 51 to 60 .. you just have a much smoother ride along the way.

They ONLY changed the xp flowing into your normal xp bar ... the AAXP gains are not subject to the modifiers they added to the normal levels so they're still the same as before the patch.

What fee is saying is " WHAA .. they slowed down the normal exp gain at level 60 so they must have nerfed AA XP also." without testing AAXP ....

AAXP gain is still the samed as it was before sept. 4th

Really short version:

The slowed down xp gain at levels 51,52,53,55,56,57,58,60 to compensate the increase of XP you get at levels 54 and 60 in such a way that you need just as much xp to get from no xp in 51 to pull 60. They did not do anything to AAXP other then restore it to the values before sept 4th

wish some level 60 with show EQ would run a test with AAXP turned up to 100%

[Acrobat]

In plain english:

Level 60 XP is now slower.

Which is part of the whole "smoothing out the curve" deal.

Nothing else has been demonstrated.

And this really doesn't make any difference, as most people don't even bother to fill their xp bar in 60 nowadays (the point is mainly getting to 60 rather than filling the bar in 60.)

What fee has shown, however, is that at 60, you don't get any bonus xp from mobs lower than 55.

What hasn't been shown, and might possibly be useful to know, is whether or not this bonus varies based on the level of the player. It might indeed be possible that a level 55 would gain more xp from the same level 55 mob than a level 60 would. And then, if they were grouped, how would it be split? There's a wealth of data that hasn't been collected. This is more like a single data point than anything else, and any conclusions drawn from it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Ratt]

I don't think what you're saying BaelinTM is correct, or perhaps you and Fee are miscommunicating.

As far as I know, the experience required for a given character to max out level 60 is anywhere from 700 million - 950 million, yes, depending on the class/race.

We need to verify that the experience required for max 60 (total experience, not level experience) remains the same. It may have changed, actually, so I don't know for sure... but it's the first step that needs to be taken at this point.

I would find it somewhat strange to find that Verant gives a per mob bonus depending on your level. I know that my experience for max level 60 (level experience) has increased slightly (100,000 exp more required to max 60. That indicates to me that the amount required for any given level has changed, and that there is no change to the amount of experience given for a mob (IE - a level 55 mob will give you X experience, regardless of your level. There's no evidence to support the contrary yet.)

If someone level 55 wants to kill a level 55 mob and note the exact exeperience given, then someone who is level 60 kill the same mob/level and note the exact same experience given, that will clear up the question. However, I suspect you'll find the amount given be the same (Taking class/race modifiers into account). Say, a level 55 high elf Wizard and a level 60 high elf wizard kill the same mob solo.

It would be needlessly complex to program a bonus given the players level, when contrasted against smothing out the experience required for a given level. I'll try to diagram what I'm talking about below.

http://seq.sf.net/exp.php

Shows a chart for a pure caster human prior to the nerf.

As you can see, level 54 and level 59 have a ridiculously large increase in the amount of experience required to level compared to the previous level (64% and 40% respectively).

I do know that to max out the required amount of experience in 60, it takes about 112,000 (that number is not exact) more experience to max. That means the total amount of experience for any given level is different, or at least most likely is.

Given that fact, I doubt there is a bonus applied to mobs killed based off your level... meaning that if a level 60 kills a level 55, and a level 55 kills a level 55, they would both get the same amount of experience. I can almost guarentee this. In fact, I will go test tonight with a level 56 killing a level 56 mob and a level 60 killing a level 56 mob (with same class/race modifiers) and see how much experience is given for each... that should answer that question once and for all.

[gore]

While having an exp mod based on level to counteract the hell effect may SEEM clumsy, there are a couple of good reasons for it. I hadn't even considered that they might do it in this manner until Gallenite stated that they did, but when you think about it...

Any change to the exp system requires that all players' exp bars remain in the same visual location.

What options do they have to do this?

They could essentially add or remove player exp to put them in the same location on the bar, while adjusting the start/endpoints of the levels. This would require toying with the database to adjust EVERY SINGLE PLAYER in that level range's actual exp value... something that was probably not a viable option. I don't have much coding experience but I imagine that would be a nightmare...

The other solutions are even more complex. Create per-person exp tables so that the exp remaining between where they are and 60 is the same as prepatch... that's just ludicrous and obviously not viable. (Although this is actually "fair" where almost any other system isn't - see later in post)

The easiest fix is doubtless what they have chosen. This means the tables remain in tact, and nobody's actual or visual exp will move at all. All that happens is that levels that used to take longer now do not due to a bonus, and levels that used to be shorter are now longer due to a penalty. One can only hope/assume that they used the correct math to balance out the penalty/bonus numbers.

It should be mentioned that this (and any other system that isn't dynamically adjusted based on where each player sits when the change goes live) isn't going to be "fair" - people who had just completed hell levels pre-patch *effectively* have lost ground in their course to 60, people who had just entered them effectively gained ground. (just something else to ponder...)

-gore

[Ratt]

Like I already stated... the experience table IS NOT INTACT. My required experience to max level 60 has gone up (albiet very slightly) ... so that means the table has been adjusted from top to bottom... as I doubt they'd mess with just one level.

[gore]

I'm inclined to trust Verant here. My own visual observations indicate that I once again get pre-patch levels of exp for the lower level mobs, not 75%.

Also, you can (or at least COULD) go slightly beyond 60's full visual representation in actual exp. I'll test when I'm able to zone again to give you the number.

Try this - with full visual 60, put exp towards normal, kill something, and zone. See if you gain some (I'm unable to test currently, I'll verify this later)

Even assuming the actual endpoint of 60 has changed, that would be trivial in relation to changing the entire tables.

Why would Gallenite lie? I see no reason. The method he suggests seems to be accurate based on what SEQ is telling us, and seems logically the easiest implementation.

-gore

[Ratt]

You are inclined to trust Verant... What planet have you been living on exactly?

Regardless, I'm not understanding what part of "The experience table has changed" is unclear.

You can't change the "endpoint" experience and NOT change everything else unless you change the total experience required, and that has NOT CHANGED.

it's like a big broomstick with a bunch of hash marks on it. You can rearrange the hashmarks all you want, but you can't just "extend" out the tip of the broomstick unless you add some material to it. This is simple math here...

In the example given, it takes 712,800,000 experience to level the caster to max level 60.

Now if you originall required 35,049,300 to max out 60, and now require 35,160,000 to max out 60... and yes the 712,800,000 figure remains the same, it means the entire experience table has moved around, much like an accordian.

[gore]

Edit - your last post cleared that up. I thought you were simply saying that you could acquire more total exp.

I'm not sure how you can say 60 takes more exp now, and the endpoint remains the same, when the only raw number you have to go by is the actual amount of total EXP you have.

Edit again - the reasons I believe what Gallenite said here are 1) it would seem to be the simplest way to adjust things, 2) I see no evidence of any changes to my AA advancement on mobs in the supposedly "nerfed" level range, and 3) I have yet to see any evidence to contradict his claims.

If you can show to me why you think 60 takes more numerical exp than before, while the cumulative exp you can acquire for all levels remains the same, then I will certainly reconsider.

-gore

[ladybat]

would I be understanding this correctly then that since I am at level 59...it will now take me LESS exp to get to 60?

thats kinda what I am inferring from looking at Ratt and fee's posts.....


thanks!

[BaelinTM]

Does anyone have the ability to make a table similar to what fee did with AAXP turned to 100% on a level 60 character ?

(with exp gained per level X mob before sept 4th and after sept 6th)

That would clear up a lot of things :)

And don't come running to me with the argment that it doesn't matter wether you use level 60 normal xp or AAXP .. the whole point of my posts was that i think it does and i'd love to see some hard evidence .. don't care if it proves if i'm right or wrong ... just wanna see it :)

[Acrobat]

This seems the most likely case for post-50 xp:

exp = (level^2)*ZEM*classmod*racemod*levelmod*bonus

Using this as a theory, we can see that at level 60, the level mod is .75, meaning that filling level 60 will take 33% longer.

If you apply this to the numbers fee has above, bonus is 1 (no change) for pre-55, then at 55 is 1.95 (95% boost) and 2.08 (108% boost) for 56.

Presumably, AA exp ignores levelmod as well as class/race mods, but the bonus should still apply.

Anyone care to comment on this theory? The only thing that's uncertain is whether the bonus is based solely on mob level, or if it's got your level as a factor in the formula somewhere.

[BaelinTM]

That's more or less what i've been trying to prove the entire time acrobat lol :)

[gore]

Actual AA exp values aren't sent to the client IIRC - the only numerical value is cumulative actual EXP (I think). My SEQ is having trouble decoding the char profile packet atm, so I'm not getting jack, but I think that the only indication of AA you have is the % estimate sent to update the client's display.

And yes. 59 now takes less time - so if you'd just gotten to level 59 prior to this patch, you *effectively* have your progress towards 60 increased. If you'd just dinged out of 54, you effectively lost progress towards 60.

-gore

[Ratt]

Ok, I just finished testing out a small portion of this... interesting results.

1. Level 60 (10/10 race/class) Regular Exp for level 56 Mob - 415,808
2. Level 56 (10/10 race/class) Regular Exp for a level 56 Mob - 495,720

As Gore said already, the AA experience isn't updating properly on zone, so the results are suspect:

1. Level 60 (10/10 race/class) AA Exp for level 56 Mob - 408,600
2. Level 56 (10/10 race/class) AA Exp for level 56 Mob - 363,200

The AA experience doesn't make much sense, so I think the data is flawed. But the Regular experience does make sense... it's harder for a level 56 to kill an even con than it is for a 60 to kill a level 56, so the experience reward is greater.

Now we need to test this with other levels, races and classes to build up a table of the modifiers.

*Rolls up sleeves* ... lets get to work! :)

[BaelinTM]

That mean we're done yelling at VI for lieing about us about restoring exp to normal on low blues ratt ? :)

[Ratt]

I don't see how we have enough data one way or the other?

I've updated the exp chart (http://seq.sf.net/exp.php) and will keep it updated as data comes in...

Data should be collected with a 10 Race, 10 Class character if at all possible.

[SwedishChef]

Background:

They said they added bonuses and penalties. Due to the nature of how previous exp changes have been made, my first idea is that they added a multiplier to the old exp... simple, aye?

Well, when I look at the data in the posts by fee, it seems more like a combination of several multipliers, which change differently based on mob level.

It gets easier to understand the current data if we start with analyzing the 4/9 test, since the last version of exp return is similar for high levels.



Mob Pre-4/9 value 4/9 test value Mul1 Mul2 Mul3
47 198810 69583 0.5 0.7 1
48 207360 82944 0.5 0.8 1
49 216090 97240 0.5 0.9 1
50 225000 112500 0.5 1.0 1
51 234090 128749 0.5 1.1 1
52 243360 146016 0.5 1.2 1
53 252810 164326 0.5 1.3 1
54 262440 238820 0.5 1.4 1.3
55 272250 265443 0.5 1.5 1.3
56 282240 293529 0.5 1.6 1.3
57 292410 ? 0.5 1.7 1.3
58 302760 354228 0.5 1.8 1.3


You get from old exp value to fee's test value by multiplying the old exp value with all the three different multipliers in turn.

Theory:
The first multiplier is based on you being level 60, and was set at 0.5 to make level 60 seem twice as long as before (All non-hell levels would probably have a multiplier less than 1, which would be compensated by a higher than 1 multiplier for previous hell levels. How far from 1 would be dependent on how abnormal the level used to be. 60 got a very low multiplier because it used to be very short.).

The second multiplier is based on mob level, either in relation to your own, or just mob level straight. Further testing with different levels of testing person would have been needed to see the difference. It goes from 0 for a level 40 mob (which didn't use to give exp before patch, right?) to 2.0 for a level 60 mob (outside the tested window is all speculation of course).

The third multiplier was 1.3 for all mobs level 54 and higher. This looks like it was added to compensate for mobs gaining in strength in a non-linear fashion. This lead to a small jump in exp return at level 54, but nothing really bad.


OK, onwards to the 6/9 patch.



Mob Pre-4/9 value 6/9 test value Mul1 Mul2 Mul3
47 198810 149107 0.75 1 1
48 207360 155520 0.75 1 1
49 216090 162067 0.75 1 1
50 225000 168750 0.75 1 1
51 234090 175567 0.75 1 1
52 243360 182520 0.75 1 1
53 252810 189607 0.75 1 1
54 262440 196830 0.75 1 1
55 272250 398165 0.75 1.5 1.3
56 282240 440293 0.75 1.6 1.3


Theory:
Now, multiplier 1 was set to 0.75, this to make level 60 exp more like it used to be. This was mentioned in the patch message.

Multiplier 2 was set back to 1 (no effect) for all mobs under level 55, which caused a de-nerf of exp return for mobs under 50, and a removal of the recently added bonus for mobs level 51-54. The de-nerf was mentioned in the patch message. The bonus for mob levels 51-54 had hardly been there long enough to mention removal of I guess... and it had to go or leveling would become too fast.

Multiplier 3 was also set back to 1 for all mobs under level 55... this was an odd change, since it only impacted level 54 mobs. It just moved the start of the 1.3 multiplier bonus up a bit in levels.

The 1.3 modifier might be what is mentioned in the patch message as group bonus for fighting mobs close to your level. Normally, a solo character would not see this very much. It is also possible that some additional multiplier was set based on your group status. Any conclusions about this fall due to lack of info.



Summary of my theories... we now get pre-4/9 exp for mobs up to level 54, and substantially higher exp for 55 and up mobs. It is unknown whether any, all or some of these multipliers apply to AA exp gained.



I don't plan on testing this myself, I prefer theory over practice :). If somebody feels like checking my theories, add the multipliers to an Excel or similar chart, extend them to lower or higher mob level ranges, and test if they fit experimental data. It should be noted it is not unlikely the multipliers might change pattern, especially multiplier 3 (the 1.3 one) might change for higher mobs, we have very little info on those.

You could also test with a non-60 character, to see what their hell level removal modifier (multiplier number 1) is. Once you have that, you can test some different mobs and form a hypothesis about what the other two multipliers are for them.


PS: btw Ratt, on what ZEM did you base your chart for exp return based on mob level vs player level? It would be much more helpful knowing that.

EDIT: Fixed table alignment error.

[link129]

I was seeing the same amount of exp on mobs lvl 43-50. 115865 exp points per kill. Killing a lvl 54 mob it jumped to 231730 exp points per kill. Just some info, may be usefull.

[Cryonic]

Link:

That is because all the client is told while you are in a zone is when to update the exp bar. It is NOT told the exact amount of exp you gained killing that mob, so the amount SEQ was showing you was 1/330th the amount of exp needed to clear your current level.

to get the TRUE amount of exp killing a mob you now have to zone in, record your current TOTAL exp which is sent to you everytime you zone, kill something, then zone again and record the new amount.

Subtract A from B and you get what you ACTUALLY got for killing that mob.

P.S. Notice that 231730 is DOUBLE 115865.

[Ratt]

Originally posted by SwedishChef

PS: btw Ratt, on what ZEM did you base your chart for exp return based on mob level vs player level? It would be much more helpful knowing that.


Sorry... meant to mention those two tests were conducted in Maidens Eye... not sure what the ZEM is for that zone.

Has anyone found the new octet offset for AA experience on zoning? That would help a bit... everything I'm testing with is regular experience right now. I think AA has been munged with as well, so the modifiers are even more different yet.

[T.C. Jaguar]

I was playing around with some numbers just to see what the effects of L51+ smoothing might look like. Just to reiterate: these numbers are hypothetical and just for fun.

I made a linear progressive "curve", with the assumptions that L51 cannot be twice as hard (or harder) as L50, and that L60 does not have to adhere to the curve.

I am reasonably sure about the L60 multiplier based on Fee's empirical evidence.



Previous XP needed Multiplier New XP needed Difference
50 10,291,400* n/a 10,291,400* n/a
51 23,976,500 0.71 17,023,315 -6,953,185
52 25,996,300 0.91 23,656,633 -2,339,667
53 28,118,100 1.12 31,492,272 3,374,172
54 46,090,700 0.83 38,255,281 -7,835,419
55 50,205,900 0.92 46,189,428 -4,016,472
56 54,529,300 1.00 54,529,300 0
57 59,065,700 1.05 62,018,985 2,953,285
58 63,819,900 1.11 70,840,089 7,020,189
59 89,334,600 0.89 79,507,794 -9,826,806
60 53,463,000 1.33 71,105,790 17,642,790
------------------------------------------------------------------
18,887

*Not sure if L50 has changed since the pre-51 smoothing several months ago.


I will be curious to see how close (or far) I am from the actual multipliers.

[DeltaHuey]

Quote:

1. Level 60 (10/10 race/class) Regular Exp for level 56 Mob - 415,808
2. Level 56 (10/10 race/class) Regular Exp for a level 56 Mob - 495,720

Interpreting this using the theory Baelin is saying (which I 100% beleive HAS to be the right way) shows the following.

assume level 60 is 75% nerf to make the level last longer and that your level in relation to the mob doesn't matter, it is just a straight bonus on mob level.

415,808/0.75 = 554,410 xp .... apply this to the 56 xp

495,720/X = 554,410 xp .... you get X = 89.5%

Now, level 56 would of had the experience requirements raised up to help smooth level 59, so an 89.5% penalty on mobs makes sense.

Why is this so hard to beleive? Verant awhile ago made levels 1-10 faster. They did it by making mobs give more xp based on your level between 1 and 10. Level 1 has always had a level bonus. It makes sense that leaving the actual xp numeral the same, and only extending what they do in 1 through 10 to levels 51 through 60 is by far the easiest thing to do.

Also, I beleive 55+ mobs give a straight bonus based on THEIR level, having absolutely nothing to do with YOUR level. How do you think Verant would add a level dependant experiene modifier for a mob when you are dealing with groups.

The easiest explanation is usually the right one.

I'm going to present an easy way to prove if this is right or not, and not actually do it because I don't have SEQ =).

Have a level 51-60 kill a level 45 mob or something. We know what the experience should be on a level 45 mob using the old xp formula. Take what they now get from that level 45 mob, and you will get multipliers based on each level. Use those multipliers on each levels experience requirements and you get new experience requirements. Add the new ones up and check the total required to the old total required. If they match, this theory is pretty water tight.

The only thing that sucks to me is that levels 50 through 54 got shit.

-=Wedge=-

[DeltaHuey]

****edit****

I'm a dumbass. Was looking at Both Ratt's numbers and Fee's numbers, when they got two different numbers for a level 60 on a level 56 mob. Obviously different ZEM's, which fucked me up.

This is a good thing though, because now we have 2 sets of numbers and can verify any patterns that hold true.

****starting over****

Fee has 156% XP gain for a level 60 on a level 56 mob with new XP changes.

Using same assumptions (an xp modifier was added based on YOUR level to smooth things out, an xp modifier was added to MOBS 55 and higher to add a bonus and that the bonus has nothing to do with YOUR level).

75% * X = 156% ... X = 208% ---- FEE's numbers.

So, level 56 mobs give a 208% bonus to XP.

RATT's numbers:

1. Level 60 (10/10 race/class) Regular Exp for level 56 Mob - 415,808
2. Level 56 (10/10 race/class) Regular Exp for a level 56 Mob - 495,720

See if using both their numbers can make any sense.

BASEXP = old xp formula with correct ZEM, etc.

BASEXP * 0.75 * 2.08 = 415,808 at 60
BASEXP * 0.895 * 2.08 = 495,720 at 56

BASEXP * 1.56 = 415,808 at 60
BASEXP * 1.8616 = 495,720 at 56

BASEXP = 266543.58 at 60
BASEXP = 266287.06 at 56

Obviously I'm seeing some rounding errors, but these are close enough where I feel confident about them. If the zone these are from has a ZEM of 85, you get 266,560... not shabby.

I think this proves that using both Fee's and Ratt's numbers, I prove my assumptions (really Baelin's with some of my own added) are correct.

There is now a modifier based on YOUR LEVEL to smooth things out (75% for 60, 89.5 for 56).

There is now a modifier for MOBS 55 and higher which does not depend on your level (208% for 56).

With more numbers, this can be proven to hold true, and we can fill out a table with all the new XP values.

-=Wedge=-

[Junu Peeth]

To DeltaHuey:

In your first post you performed the following operations and obtained these results. Note that I substituted figures with pure algebra so that you can see the final correlation without any association by numbers.

Assuming that:
415,808/0.75 = 554,410
a/y=c

And we know:
495,720/X = 554,410
b/x=c

Then Solve for X:
x=b/c

where:
c=a/y

Therefore:
x=b*y/a


================================================== =
Now you assumed the calculations from your previous post were correct and continued on:

BASEXP * 0.75 * 2.08 = 415,808
z*y*d=a

BASEXP * 0.895 * 2.08 = 495,720
z*x*d=b

BASEXP * 1.56 = 415,808
z*y*d=a

BASEXP * 1.8616 = 495,720
z*x*d=b


BASEXP = 266543.58
z=a/(y*d) (**1)

BASEXP = 266287.06
z=b/(x*d) (**2)

This was where you ended your conclusions but you could (and should) have gone further to its final conslucion.

Since we are already working on the calculation made in your first post (which were based off your intial assumptions) which gave us "x":
x=b*y/a

Substituting this into (**2):
z=b/([b*y/a]*d)
z=1/([y/a]*d)
z=a/([y]*d)
z=a/(y*d)

So you have effectively proved that:
1=1

Or also demonstrated:
1/4=0.25
0.25*4=1

It's a common mistake but nevertheless your two posts prove nothing because they are a loop. They support each other ONLY if you assume that the other calcualtion is correct.
IE. Assuming A=B then B=A, because B=A then A=B. Conclusion: Gimme phat Lewtz.

[Junu Peeth]

In Fee's 2nd post in this thread he mentioned a formula:

Prior to the patch AAXP was gained using the following formula:
code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(moblvl^2) * ZEM * classmod) = A
(moblvl^2) * ZEM = B

B - (A - B) = aaxp reward
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This can be simplified. It does not change the formula although it kept glaring at me wheneve I looked at it.

B - (A - B) = aaxp reward
aaxp reward = {(moblvl^2) * ZEM} - {[(moblvl^2) * ZEM * classmod] - [(moblvl^2) * ZEM]}
aaxp reward = [(moblvl^2) * ZEM] * {1 - (classmod - 1)}

aaxp reward = [(moblvl^2) * ZEM] * (2 - classmod)

EDIT: I just want to say also that SwedishChef's post has been the most concise and correct statement on what has been demonstrated so far. Your usage of 3 modifiers was excellent.

[eq_freak]

I noticed Fee updated the charProfileStruct in everquest.h today to include the current altexp offset. So hopefully we can get some new numbers soon :)

[DeltaHuey]

I don't think it's loop, let me look at it another way, and you let me know.

2 equations, 2 unknowns ....

Here is what I start out with.

BASEXP * X * L = 415,808
BASEXP * Y * L = 495,720

BASEXP is known (level^2*ZEM*mod): 266,560.
X is known from Fee's data: 0.75

L is the MOB level modifier, right now unknown
Y is the PLAYER level 56 modifier, right now unknown

So There you go, two equations, two unknowns.

415,808/(X*L) = 495,720/(Y*L)

multiply both sides by L

415,808/X = 495,720/Y

415,808 * Y = 495,720 * X
Y = (495,720 * X ) / 415,808
X = 0.75...

Y = 0.894

Okay, so now Y and X are both known, pick one of the equations...

BASEXP * Y * L = 495,720
266,560 * 0.894 * L = 495,720

238304.64

L = 2.08

Of course, I can show a loop too, just, like you say, carry it one step further:

415,808/(X*L) = 495,720/(Y*L)
415,808/(0.75*L) = 495,720/(0.894*L)
554,410/L = 554,410/L

FUCK ME, 1=1

This time I didn't even use Fee's numbers but I get the same 56 MOB mod (208%). I had to use Fee's stuff the first time, because I didn't know the BASEXP, but with a ZEM of 85 I do know it.

Let me know if this is still flawed, but I think using my assumptions to setup the equation as:

BASEXP * LEVELMOD * MOBMOD = NEWXP

I get numbers that fit both sets of DATA out there. Now, with only two sets, it needs more to be proved.

-=Wedge=-

[Junu Peeth]

I didn't really make my point cleraly in my first post DeltaHuey and I apologise for it. I will elaborate further.

In your first post you proved that X = 0.894 (to save confusion it is noted that you use X in your first post and use Y to last post to define the same number). Where X is the multiplier a level 56 player receives for killing a lvl 56 mob. This was obtained by knowing:
(1)the XP received for the mob from a lvl 56 char;
(2)the XP received for the mob from a lvl 60 char;
(3)the multiplier a level 60 player receives for killing a lvl 56 mob is 0.75.

These facts I will not dispute. Nor will I dispute that the multiplier for a lvl 56 mob being killed by a lvl 56 player is 0.894.

Therefore I agree with your first post up to this point in your workings.

What I disagree with at this point in time but forgot to even mention in my post (it was 3am when I posted) was your assumtion that:
Also, I beleive 55+ mobs give a straight bonus based on THEIR level, having absolutely nothing to do with YOUR level.Now you may believe this but it has not been proven. It may well be the case but we have at this time only one point of data available so no comparison nor conclusion can be made, only possilbilities can be discussed. Your belief is indeed one of those possibilities and is therefore an assumtion in your calculations. You can not use an assumption to prove itself.
How do you think Verant would add a level dependant experiene modifier for a mob when you are dealing with groups.I think (based on the data set we have available for a lvl 60 player) that they could have used the formula set forth by SwedishChef in his forst table and adapted it for a lvl 56. For a lvl 60 we see that the 2nd multiplier could be represented by:
Mul2 = 2 - [(playerlevel - moblevel)/10]
which would make Mul2 dependant upon the player's level or Mul2 could be represented by:
Mul2 = (moblevel - 40)/10
which would make Mul2 independant of the player's level.

Both of these formulaes are simple and both are, at this time, valid possiblities for the description of Mul2. There are of course an infitie number of possible formulae but in my mind these two should be explored first as they are the most likely.

Getting back to your assumption that Mul2 is independant of player level. Your whole second post starts with that assumption and then goes on to prove that assumption based upon itself.
BASEXP * 0.75 * 2.08 = 415,808 at 60
BASEXP * 0.895 * 2.08 = 495,720 at 56Here we know that 0.75 is correct but you assume that because the 2.08 (ie a 108% gain) is the correct figure for a lvl 60 killing a lvl 56 mob then 2.08 is again the correct figure for a lvl 56 killing a lvl 56 mob.

You show the same thing in your final post.
BASEXP * X * L = 415,808
BASEXP * Y * L = 495,720 You inherently assume that L = L when this has not yet been proven and they should be tagged as L60 and L56 (I wish I cold find a way to subscript 60 and 56). If it is proven that the modifier for a lvl 60 player and lvl 56 player killing a lvl 56 mob is the same then L60 = L56 and the constant L (L = 208) can indeed be used for the killing of a lvl 56 mob by any player.

If you were to recalculate your final post but substitute L for L60 and L56 where appropriate you would find that Y (as represented in your final post) is not solvable. It ends up as:
415,808/(X*L60) = 495,720/(Y*L56)
Y*L56 = 495,720/[415,808/(X*L60)]
Y*L56 = X*L60*495,720/415,808
Y*L56 = X*L60*1.19218
we know: L60 = 2.08 and X = 0.75
Y*L56 = 0.75*2.08*1.19218
Y*L56 = 1.8598

IF at a later time L56 is shown to be the same as L60 (=2.08) then Y does indeed calculate as 0.89414 or 89.4%. Personally I hope it doesn't as this means there is no bonus given for a lvl 56 killing an even con mob versus a lvl 60 killing a mob that it 4 level below him. I hope that VI introduced bonuses to mobs based upon the difference in levels between the killer and killee.

And before some asks again: "how could this theory apply to group XP being split being players of different levels".

Each mob is equivalent to an amount of XP calculated by: level^2*ZEM*classmod (what DeltaHuey terms BASEXP)

BASEXP is then split between the group using the formula:
Player's_split = PLayer's_Level / Sum_of_group's_level

So far nothing is different and this is where group XP goes it separate ways and is then calculated on an indivual basis.

Multiply this by the hell level modifier for the player receiving the XP (shown as Mul1 in SwedishChef's table) and then by Mul2 and Mul3 as shown in SwedishChef's table. Voila, individual player XP taken from group XP and adjusted for hell level removal and for a risk_vs_reward scale.

Again DeltaHuey, my apologies for correctly singling out the factor of your arguement that I disagreed with in the first place. I do not agree with your assumption that xp given by mobs is the same for all players until this is proven to be the case. In your second post you did assume this to be true and did input this assumption into the two formulas which proved nothing more than: If L = L then Y = 0.894.

My conclusion is that until more XPdata is gathered by players under level 60 in zones whose ZEMs are well known then the only thing we can say is what works for lvl 60 only. And even then we can not give an accurate description of mobs of level less than 47 or greater than 56. As SwedishChef has shown in his work there appears to be a pattern involving three multipliers the last of which is equal to 1 at levels 47 to 54 and changes to 1.3 at level 56 and 57 (and likely 58 if the 4/9 modifiers have not been changed to much), but what happens at levels greater than these we can only extrapolate.

Also unknown at this time is if Mul2 is dependant on player level and Mul3 is not OR Mul3 is dependant on player level and Mul2 is not OR both Mul2 and Mul3 are dependant on player level OR neither Mul2 nor Mul3 are dependant on player level.

I would suggest everyone refer to SwedishChef's post as the most concise and accurate summary of what is known at this time. I do. (Because I babble too much)

EDIT: DeltaHuey, I do agree that the formula you postulated:
BASEXP * LEVELMOD * MOBMOD = NEWXP
is the most likely one with possibly these clarifications/modifications:
* LEVELMOD is determined only by the level of the player;(assumed in your theory but I want to state it here)
* MOBMOD may or may not be determined by the level of the player; (in your theory you assume it to be solely independant of player level)
* MOBMOD is very likely to be made of two parts as described in SwedishChef's post. (you have made no mention of this possibility either, the use of two modifiers though does describe a logical step in the data we have seen gathered so far)

[DeltaHuey]

I see what you are saying.

X*L
Y*L

I assume L is a constant, so X and Y can be figured out that way.

If you make L dependant on level, then bam, 3 unknowns, 2 equations.

I did make it perfectly clear that I made these assumptions and that more data was needed to see if things fit. That is how you do it, you make a model and your assumptions and see if the data fits. The data does fit, but it is very little data.

I was a bit overzealous in posting that I was right.

So, in my opinion, I found a theory that works with both sets of data, but that more data is needed to prove it. And it will be proven =)

-=Wedge=-

ps. The easiest way to see which is right is to have a level 56 kill a level 54 mob. In my theory, 56 would get 89.4% of BASEXP, in Swedesh's, it would be something else entirely. Of course, the more I think about post 9/4 and pre 9/6 things, I think Swedesh has to be right...

[Junu Peeth]

Originally posted by DeltaHuey
So, in my opinion, I found a theory that works with both sets of data, but that more data is needed to prove it. And it will be proven I believe you didn't find a theory, you only solved for a variable by assuming that another variable was a constant. I am not taking that away from you as no one had done it previously and I am beng a little pedantic. But you did not prove anything.

You took two equations that contained two variables and then by an assumtion you added another equation that said L = L.

You solved for 2 variables in 3 equations, this is taught in high school maths.

As for whether or not your assumption that L is a constant will be proven or now I do not know obviously. But I do hope that VI coded such that your assumption is incorrect. I would rather receive a larger reward for a larger risk. IE. a lvl 56 taking out an even con vs a lvl 60 taking out a mob 4 level lower than him. Whether this would skew levelling would have to be tested and balanced of course, it might be that because the XP required to level when 56 is so much lower than at 60 that the 56 player receives a good enough reward anyway. Although this logic is a little skewed in itself it is possible VI took this path.

[Ratt]

I'll see what I can do about getting a level 54 mob killed with a level 56 10/10 and see what results.

Now that AA exp is fixed too, I'll look into that as well.

[rizwank]

Tell me exactly how to help.

Im thinking, if there are any light blues in ME that are same lvl as in DSP, I can kill one in DSP then in ME and compare to see if there is a ZEM.

Once we have that, ME has mobs of every lvl... kill one of each lvl and get xp
verify with another char then do with a 59 and 58 etc.

wouldnt this be the best way of finding out our formiula... once we have enough data..

rk

[DeltaHuey]

A 56 killing a level 54 mob is helpful.

Also a 56 killing a level 40's something mob would be useful to (stuff in the caves of DSP or tribesman I think are 40's).

Since there is likely two multipliers, one for your level (which is semi-certain), and one for the mobs level (the nature of which is unknown), a 56 killing a level 40's mob should only give you the one based on your level (ie. a level 60 getting 75% on everything below 5 levels of him).

-=Wedge=-

[Junu Peeth]

Agreed DeltaHuey.

What is eventually needed is for a lvl 60 player to solo all mobs from the lowest lt blue up to as far as they can go (obviously it gets hard to solo a white con and up), a lvl 59 player to solo all mobs from the lowest lt blue up to as far as they can go, a lvl 58 player to solo all mobs from the lowest lt blue up to as far as they can go, etc......

Then as DeltaHuey proposes, comparing XP gain from different lvl players killing mobs in the mid to low 40's will very likely give us enough data to discover the new Hell_level_Multiplier for whatever lvl the player is.

So to recap, even if you can't solo high dark blue mobs you can still go out and find the lowest light blue mob and solo it and then a mob one level higher than that and solo it, etc. Report back here with the lvl of mob killed, XP gained, your class, level and what zone it was in (with the ZEM if possible).

Eventually with enough people helping and collecting data we should be able to get a table that will describe all the unknowns for all for players from level 51 to 60.

[Yueh]

You don't have to solo the mob, you just have to get solo exp. So, you can have help as long as that help is not in the zone when you kill the mob. AND, the mob cannot die due to a DoT.

[Cryonic]

To get the full exp from the mob, you just have to do more than 50% of the damage to it and stay within a certain distance. Damage Shields don't count towards anyone. Mob can die of a DoT as long as you do more than 50% of the needed damage. Mob can't die to an NPC (like guards), but can be killed by someones pet (even yours).

[hhh]

I have data that I collected tonite I wish to share. I'll do some more tests tomorrow. Everything is, of course, solo exp.

Lvl 56 PC 1/1 kiling in kunark outdoors 100% normal

Mob lvl Exp gained Mob con

41 0 Light Blue
42 165,240 Blue
44 165,240 Blue
45 165,240 Blue
46 165,240 Blue
47 165,240 Blue
48 165,240 Blue
49 165,240 Blue
50 165,240 Blue
51 330,480 Blue


Lvl 60 PC 1/1 killing same area aa

Mob Lvl, AA Exp ganed, Mob Con
43 90,800 Light Blue
44 90,800 Light Blue
45 90,800 Blue
46 154,200 Blue
49 181,600 Blue


My data may be flawed. I did notice my current exp and max exp changes whenever you change zones. I did NOT zone after each kill. If I need to do this, I can collect new data to post in the next few days. I'm very curious to see who really got screwed out of all this.

[SwedishChef]

Data gathering would be great. Just posting raw data is best. Don't try to recalculate the data to compensate for any of these modifiers before posting it, but include what class modifier and ZEM they were obtained with, and your level (and the mobs level of course).

Once you have a set of data, regathering the same set of data with 100 % AA exp would help in checking what multipliers are the same for AA, and which are different.

To get solo exp:

If mob is 54 or lower, deal more damage than any other player or group which hit the mob, or any single NPC, and don't let an NPC get last hit or mob will poof. DS damage does not count to anyone. Don't let a dot from someone who is not in zone (= sourceless damage) get the kill either, there used to be a bug with that, not sure if it is still in effect.

If mob is level 55 or higher, the only thing required for you to get exp is that you have dealt more damage than any other player or group. Dots cause no troubles of any kind. NPC-s can deal the majority of the damage, and can get last hit, the corpse won't poof anyway. The ability to get NPC-s mad at eachother has been diminished through recent fixes because of bardic "charm burns" (well needed fix btw), but if they are on opposing factions they might still start fighting "naturally" (by you pulling one close to the other).

If mob is charmed or mem blured, all damage counters are reset.

Any mob that starts fleeing at the end is easy to solo exp, just have your friends camp out when it flees, or mem blur it.


Easiest way to obtain the Zone Exp Modifier: get a reference kill. Any solo exp for a 47-56 mob by a 60 char would do (since we know all the multipliers for a 60 char on those level mobs, ZEM is the only unknown). If you can't calculate the ZEM from this, just include the reference kill info at the start of your post.

[SwedishChef]

And yes, you need to zone (or relog) after each kill, otherwise you will only get the same resolution that the ingame exp meter gives (you get updates in ticks of the exp meter only when killing mobs, but when you zone it sends the actual number).

[Junu Peeth]

A question I have that arises from hhh's data (even though the data itself is invalid) is what is the multiplier for light blue mobs now?

Do blues and lt blues act the same, XP-wise, in that they both use the formula of (mob_level^2 * ZEM) as a base or do lt blue mobs have a multiplier (less than one) for being so much lower than the player is, just as mobs 55+ get a multiplier of 1.3 (and also a sliding multiplier based on mob level) for being harder?

I just haven't seen any data posted for a lvl 60 killing lt blue mobs (ie. lvl 45 and down) yet.

[hhh]

Quick update on this that I have.. I understand the point now of only being sent data to move 1/330. Hence why all the #s were the same. Here is some quick data I collected killing solo again. The computed exp is from the Player attributes window before killing the mob, killing mob, zone out, zone in.

This is a lvl 56 PC with no modifiers than I know of (not a halfing or war or big race or whatever).

Mob Lvl Color Computed xp
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
42 Lt Blue 102,204
43 Blue 134,064
44 Blue 140,524
45 Blue 147,136
46 Blue 153,900
47 Blue 160,816
48 Blue 175,104
49 Blue 182,476
50 Blue 190,000
51 Blue 310,351


Lvl 60 PC, 100% Normal EXP. Same zone as above.

Mob Lvl Exp
----------------------------
41 22,180
42 23,284
43 73,220
44 102,220 lite blue ^
45 133,649 blue -_-
46 139,656
47 145,793
48 152,062
49 158,465
50 165,000
51 171,665


EDIT: Adding lvl 57 pc info

Mob Lvl Exp
------------------------------
40 87,552 lite blue
42 160,786 blue
43 169,625
44 176,563
45 184,680
46 192,979
51 237,211

[DeltaHuey]

So, using 89.4%...

43*43*ZEM = 134,064 / 0.894

1849 * ZEM = 149,959

ZEM = 81.1 ... which makes no sense, soooo

obviously 89.4% is wrong, or this isn't a 1/1 character (what is it exactly?).

So my previous stuff is wrong =). Without a level 60 in the same zone and their accepted XP modifer of 75%, I don't know how else to figure out the ZEM and XP modifer of a 56.

But, the jump from 50 to 51 makes sense for Swedish's theory. 51 is within 5 levels of 56, just as 55 is within 5 levels of 60. Maybe you get a bonus for fighting cons within 5 levels of you.

Now, the jump.

Normal XP is a jump of:

(level * level * ZEM ) / (level * level * ZEM) ... cancel ZEM out

(51*51)/(50*50) = 2,601 / 2,500 = 1.0404 (104.04%)

Now, this jump is:

310,351 / 190,000 = 1.6334 (163.34%)

1.0404 * MOB = 1.6334

MOB = 1.56997 ~ 1.57, 57% bonus for a 56 killing a 51 con.

I think that is right.

-=Wedge=-

[Junu Peeth]

Lvl XP TotMul XEM Mul1 Mul2 Mul3 Calc XP XP Diff
42 102204 57.939 95 0.8 0.953 0.8 102,210.4 -6.39
43 134064 72.506 95 0.8 0.954 1 134,059.9 4.10
44 140524 72.585 95 0.8 0.955 1 140,514.9 9.12
45 147136 72.660 95 0.8 0.956 1 147,128.4 7.60
46 153900 72.732 95 0.8 0.957 1 153,900.9 -0.91
47 160816 72.800 95 0.8 0.958 1 160,832.9 -16.87
48 175104 76.000 95 0.8 1 1 175,104.0 0.00
49 182476 76.000 95 0.8 1 1 182,476.0 0.00
50 190000 76.000 95 0.8 1 1 190,000.0 0.00
51 310351 119.320 95 0.8 1.256 1.25 310,351.3 -0.32


From the data that hhh supplied I have tried to make a few guesses at what some of the multipliers are. Note that we don't have the actual ZEM at this time so these values are very suspect. Let me explain my reasoning so far.

Firstly, as you can see I tabulated the Lvl of the mob against the XP that was gained for its kill. I then proceeded to calculate the next column (called Total Multiplier) by taking the XP and dividing it by LVL^2.

The most obvious similarity that struck me straight away was that for levels 48 to 50 the total multiplier comes out to be exactly 76, I took this as a base of my assumptions.

Using SwedishChef's tables as the base for the rest of my columns I then had four variables to fill: XEM, Mul1(Hell Level Modifier-patched on 4/9), Mul2 and Mul3. If you haven't read or can't remember the tables that SwedishCHef posted Iwould recommend looking at that before reading further.

I assumed that Mul2 and Mul3 were both value 1.0 for lvls 48 to 50 and that left me to apply the total multiplier of 76.00 between two columns, XEM and Mul1. XEM = 95 and Mul1 = 0.8 fit. There is no good explanation for why I chose these numbers and this is not concrete, just a place to work from. XEM = 95 is within the range that XEMs can fall in as far as I am aware though and Mul1 = 0.8 would be a possible figure as that would make Lvl 56 take 25% longer, smoothing out the hell levels by making the non-hell levels (of which 56 was) take a bit longer.

I then took these two figures as constants from here on. XEM can not change because these mobs were all killed within the same zone and the Hell-Level-Multiplier is applied on the player's level which did not change either in this test data.

How did I get Mul2 and Mul3 after this? I fudged it to fit. While definitely not perfect it does show some small degree of progression and hopefully can be modified when we get more data. (ie XEM)

The Calculated XP column was from me wanting to check how close the Multipliers actually fit.
So Calc XP = lvl * lvl * xem * mul1 * mul2 * mul3
I then took the calculated XP away from the XP reported by hhh to see how big a margin of error there was. The figures speak for themselves.

My conclusion: If you can't give me the XEM or the data needed to calculate the XEM, I am going to go completely insane by looking at infinite combinations of these damn numbers. :confused:

hhh could you take a lvl 60 into the same zone you were in and kill a mob about level 48 to 50 and record the XP gain please? Also what exactly were the race and class of the character doing the first kills and what is the level 60 you have. It helps to have complete data.

EDIT: hhh has told me the toon in a personal message, it was a 10/10. The lvl 60 he has is a 10/11. Now we just need the XEM :)

[eq_freak]

He posted an update:


Lvl 60 PC, 100% Normal EXP. Same zone as above.

Mob Lvl Exp
----------------------------
50 165,000

And you say its a 10/11 char(ie, class mod 11 yes?).

So, exp for the lvl 50 mob before class mod = 150.000

And we know that the "smoothing mod" for 60 is .75, so he got 200.000 exp before that was applied. Divide 200.000 by 50^2 and you get ZEM=80. Hope I didnt mess anything up :)

I plugged in the numbers in excell using those values(including classmod 11) and tweaked the multipliers. The XP column is then computed, and seems to match hhh's numbers(thanks for the data :) ).

HHHs level 60 char with 1.1 class mod

Lvl XP ZEM Mul1 Mul2 Mul3
41 22189 80 0,75 0,2 1
42 23284 80 0,75 0,2 1
43 73220 80 0,75 0,6 1
44 102220 80 0,75 0,8 1
45 133650 80 0,75 1 1
46 139656 80 0,75 1 1
47 145794 80 0,75 1 1
48 152064 80 0,75 1 1
49 158466 80 0,75 1 1
50 165000 80 0,75 1 1
51 171666 80 0,75 1 1

I tried the same for HHH's level 56 char, but I suspect he accidently forgot to type in one exp value(no 41 in his chart, but his 42 value matches the expected 41 value exactly):

The calculated XP for the level 51 unfortunately doesnt quite match the recorded xp, so the multiplier seems slightly off.



Level XP ZEM Mul1 Mul2 Mul3
41 102204 80 0,95 0,8 1
42 134064 80 0,95 1 1
43 140524 80 0,95 1 1
44 147136 80 0,95 1 1
45 153900 80 0,95 1 1
46 160816 80 0,95 1 1
47 167884 80 0,95 1 1
48 175104 80 0,95 1 1
49 182476 80 0,95 1 1
50 190000 80 0,95 1 1
51 296514 80 0,95 1,5 1

[Junu Peeth]

Yep:
165000 = 50 * 50 * 1.1 * ZEM * 0.75 * 1 *1
165000 = 2062.5 * XEM
ZEM = 80

So for a lvl 56:

Lvl XP TotMul XEM Mul1 Mul2 Mul3 Calc XP XP Diff
42 102204 57.939 80 0.95 0.953 0.8 102,210.4 -6.39
43 134064 72.506 80 0.95 0.954 1 134,059.9 4.10
44 140524 72.585 80 0.95 0.955 1 140,514.9 9.12
45 147136 72.660 80 0.95 0.956 1 147,128.4 7.60
46 153900 72.732 80 0.95 0.957 1 153,900.9 -0.91
47 160816 72.800 80 0.95 0.958 1 160,832.9 -16.87
48 175104 76.000 80 0.95 1 1 175,104.0 0.00
49 182476 76.000 80 0.95 1 1 182,476.0 0.00
50 190000 76.000 80 0.95 1 1 190,000.0 0.00
51 310351 119.320 80 0.95 1.256 1.25 310,351.3 -0.32




56 495720 158.073 85 0.95 1.566 1.25 495701.64 18.36

*Note The lvl 56 data has been taken from Ratt's Submission after working out what ZEM was used from his lvl 60 test data.


Also, here is a possible table for level 60. I have taken the data that hhh has submitted and added the data that fee initially used and modified it for ZEM and level/class modifier for both. The table is based on a 10/10 char and assuming a ZEM of 100. Notice the anomaly at lvl 42 mobs, either this is an error in VI's table or I am just too tired to pick up my own errors.


Mob Lvl XP Mul1 Mul2 Mul3 Calc XP XP Diff
41 25,204.5 0.75 0.1 2 25,215 -10.4545
42 26,459.1 0.75 0.2 1 26,460 -0.9091
43 83,204.5 0.75 0.3 2 83,205 -0.4545
44 116,159.1 0.75 0.4 2 116,160 -0.9091
45 151,873.9 0.75 1 1 151,875 -1.1364
46 158,700.0 0.75 1 1 158,700 0.0000
47 165,673.9 0.75 1 1 165,675 -1.1364
48 172,797.7 0.75 1 1 172,800 -2.2727
49 180,073.9 0.75 1 1 180,075 -1.1364
50 187,500.0 0.75 1 1 187,500 0.0000
51 195,073.9 0.75 1 1 195,075 -1.1364
52 202,800.0 0.75 1 1 202,800 0.0000
53 210,674.4 0.75 1 1 210,675 -0.5556
54 218,700.0 0.75 1 1 218,700 0.0000
55 442,405.6 0.75 1.5 1.3 442,406 -0.6944
56 489,214.4 0.75 1.6 1.3 489,216 -1.5556


At this time I can not spot a good pattern in Mul2 and Mul3 for the lvl 56 player data. I think it may be best just to rethink the use of 2 multipliers for that data and just one (possibly called Mob Level Modifier). That would make the formula for XP Gained:
XP = Player_Level * Player_Level * Class_Modifier * Race_Modifier * ZEM * Hell_Level_Modifier * Mob_Level_Modifier

LOL, what a well thougt out system. No wonder they want to make EQ2.

[Alwayslost]

All these formulas and tables are giving me a headache...:)

All I know is that when soloing in velks I STILL get one Blue for each 4.5 bugs I kill. But I get to kill more bugs because everyone else thinks there is less exp and they go elsewhere. :cool:

[rizwank]

can we get an update to http://seq.sourceforge.net/exp.php

[Ratt]

Great info coming in, thanks for the hard work guys... this is what makes SEQ so fun to work on... the exploration and divination of the magical gods (or devils, depending on your point of view) of Verant Interactive.

I will get the exp chart updated this weekend with all the new values (and additional tests I plan on running).

[rizwank]

So did one of the VI devs post here like mobhunter said?

[SwedishChef]

Yes, on first page, one named Gallenite.

His information was helpful, even though he doesn't appear to like the work done here :).

[SwedishChef]

hhh, I like your datagathering, it helps alot. The data we get can be divided in two parts. Data on levels with no high level boost is perfect for learning what the hell level removal multiplier is. Once we have that, data from some different levels of mobs in the bonus area tells us what system the bonus multipliers are following for that level. Your data has been great for part one, which is the most important one.

Your data has also helped me alot with guessing what the multipliers are for different levels of light blue (cyan).

However, I have one question you might help answer. Is there any way you could check if the data you submitted as gathered from level 42-47 mobs with your level 56 character might have been gathered from 41-46 mobs instead (leaving a hole in your data at level 47)?

I am basing this on the fact that you say the lowest mob you killed conned light blue (42 should be dark blue to 56, I think), plus the fact that it is very hard to match your 42-47 data with any multipliers, but if they were gathered from 41-46 it would be easy.

Some more data from your level 57 character will help alot also, especially some from levels 52 and up, which is where we should start seeing a bonus (hopefully). While you are at it, could you see if you have time to re-verify the data you got for level 42 and 43 mobs? They are off by a few fractions for me. Might have forgotten to zone before checking the starting exp value, for example.


Here are my thoughts from the data you have given so far.

These values are looking promising:

Hell level removal multiplier (Mul 1) for a 56 char: 0.95
Hell level removal multiplier (Mul 1) for a 57 char: 1.14

It is easily seen that the bonus for a 56 kicks in at level 51, so it is likely that the bonus is applied to mobs (your level - 5) and higher, at least for levels 56-60.

Nothing can be said yet about what the bonus multipliers should be for 56 and 57 chars. This is what it looks like for the tested levels:

56 char, 51 mob: Mul 2 * Mul 3 = 1.57 (maybe 1.256*1.25, as Junu suggested, but kinda odd numbers)
56 char, 56 mob (Ratt data): Mul 2 * Mul 3 = 1.95757.... (~1.45*1.35, but does not quite fit, missing a fraction)

One level cyan = 0.8 multiplier
Second cyan level = 0.6 multiplier
Third and fourth level of cyan = 0.2 multiplier
(Counting downwards from normal blue mobs.)

[SwedishChef]

Btw, don't ask me if the cyan multipliers should be put in as Mul 2 or Mul 3, or split over both as Junu did.

If anyone has exp data on a cyan mob during the 4/9 to 6/9 timespan, we might be able to figure it out, but without that there is no chance.

On a hunch, I'd place the cyan multiplier in the Mul 3 column, just because that is where the multipliers size seems to depend the most on how far away from your level the mob is.

[eq_freak]

Now all we need are some datapoints for killing mobs above your own level. Although this info is probably hard to gather unless you have a 3 computer powerlvling setup.

[Junu Peeth]

Originally posted by SwedishChef
To hhh
However, I have one question you might help answer. Is there any way you could check if the data you submitted as gathered from level 42-47 mobs with your level 56 character might have been gathered from 41-46 mobs instead (leaving a hole in your data at level 47)?

I am basing this on the fact that you say the lowest mob you killed conned light blue (42 should be dark blue to 56, I think), plus the fact that it is very hard to match your 42-47 data with any multipliers, but if they were gathered from 41-46 it would be easy.

LOL, that would make things fit very nicely if it were the case yes.


It is easily seen that the bonus for a 56 kicks in at level 51, so it is likely that the bonus is applied to mobs (your level - 5) and higher, at least for levels 56-60.

Aye, it does look that way and I hope it bears out to be true.


I am resubmitting the tables that hhh has posted after modifying them to display XP for 10/10 chars in a 100 ZEM zone. His level 60 is a race10 class 11, his lvl 57 is a race12 class12 and the lvl 56 is a race10 class10. He told me these values in a PM to keep his anonymity. The ZEM I am deriving from comparing his lvl 60 XP data to the multipliers we have already collected for a lvl 60. These tables should help Ratt to fill in his master table a bit better. (Note that I have also added the modified data that fee first submitted for a lvl 60)

In the level 56 data I have assumed that the range of 42 to 47 was in reality from 41 to 46. Using this assumption the databecomes very smooth. This needs to verifeid by hhh.


Player Lvl: 56
Mob XP Race Class ZEM NewXP
41 102204 1.00 1.00 80 127,755
42 134064 1.00 1.00 80 167,580
43 140524 1.00 1.00 80 175,655
44 147136 1.00 1.00 80 183,920
45 153900 1.00 1.00 80 192,375
46 160816 1.00 1.00 80 201,020
47 1.00 1.00 80 0
48 175104 1.00 1.00 80 218,880
49 182476 1.00 1.00 80 228,095
50 190000 1.00 1.00 80 237,500
51 310351 1.00 1.00 80 387,939



In the level 57 data I have changed two figures which I would like hhh to recheck if possible. For mob lvl 42 he has recorded 160786 and Ihave used 160876, for mob lvl 43 he has recorded 169625 and Ihave used 168628. I believe a number of typos or calculation errors have been made here, using the new numbers the formulas fit perfectly. Until these are verified by hhh the numbers can not be fully trusted though. Also note that hhh has told me that this character is a race12 class12 previously but the data will not fit using this combination, I substitued a 10/12 instead and the data fits nicely. This also needs to be verified. Hopefully hhh will be willing to share to all what character he used to collect this data.


Player Lvl: 57
Mob XP Race Class ZEM NewXP
40 87552 1.00 1.20 80 91,200
41 1.00 1.20 80 0
42 160876 1.00 1.20 80 167,579
43 168628 1.00 1.20 80 175,654
44 176563 1.00 1.20 80 183,920
45 184680 1.00 1.20 80 192,375
46 192979 1.00 1.20 80 201,020
47 1.00 1.20 80 0
48 1.00 1.20 80 0
49 1.00 1.20 80 0
50 1.00 1.20 80 0
51 237211 1.00 1.20 80 247,095


In the lvl 60 data I have changed one figure also: for mob lvl 41 I have used 22190 instead of 22180, the reason is the numbers fit better. This is not a big deal if this one is not correct though.


Player Lvl: 60
Mob XP Race Class ZEM NewXP
41 22190 1.00 1.10 80 25,216
42 23284 1.00 1.10 80 26,459
43 73220 1.00 1.10 80 83,205
44 102220 1.00 1.10 80 116,159
45 133649 1.00 1.10 80 151,874
46 139656 1.00 1.10 80 158,700
47 145793 1.00 1.10 80 165,674
48 152062 1.00 1.10 80 172,798
49 158465 1.00 1.10 80 180,074
50 165000 1.00 1.10 80 187,500
51 171665 1.00 1.10 80 195,074
52 182520 1.00 1.20 75 202,800
53 189607 1.00 1.20 75 210,674
54 196830 1.00 1.20 75 218,700
55 398165 1.00 1.20 75 442,406
56 440293 1.00 1.20 75 489,214


NOTE THAT THIS DATA NEEDS TO BE RE-CHECKED BEFORE IT CAN BE USED. I BELIEVE IT TO BE MOST LIKELY CORRECT BUT MUST BE TREATED AS SUSPECT STILL.

EDIT: Changed PLayer Level 60 Multipliers for Class and ZEM in the range of Mob Level 52 to 56 to reflect actual values.

[Junu Peeth]

Using the data above (although it is suspect) I have tried to find a combination of multipliers which fit the data.

In each table the first colum is the XP adjusted for race class and XEM, we are working with a 10/10 in a 100ZEM zone. The second column is the proposed Hell-level Balancing Modifier and the third is the proposed Mob Level Multiplier (this corresponds to Mul2 * Mul3 in SwedishChef's work). The forth column is what the XP would be based on the level of the mob killed and assuming that HBM and MLM are correct. The last column is the difference between actual data and my theoretical result (ie a check).



Player Lvl: 56
NewXP HBM MLM TestXP XPDiff
127,755 0.95 0.800 127,756 -1.00
167,580 0.95 1.000 167,580 0.00
175,655 0.95 1.000 175,655 0.00
183,920 0.95 1.000 183,920 0.00
192,375 0.95 1.000 192,375 0.00
201,020 0.95 1.000 201,020 0.00
0 0.95 0 0.00
218,880 0.95 1.000 218,880 0.00
228,095 0.95 1.000 228,095 0.00
237,500 0.95 1.000 237,500 0.00
387,939 0.95 1.570 387,939 -0.40




Player Lvl: 57
NewXP HBM MLM TestXP XPDiff
91,200 0.95 0.600 91,200 0.00
0 0.95 0 0.00
167,579 0.95 1.000 167,580 -0.83
175,654 0.95 1.000 175,655 -0.83
183,920 0.95 1.000 183,920 -0.21
192,375 0.95 1.000 192,375 0.00
201,020 0.95 1.000 201,020 -0.21
0 0.95 0 0.00
0 0.95 0 0.00
0 0.95 0 0.00
0 0.95 0 0.00
247,095 0.95 1.000 247,095 -0.21




Player Lvl: 60
NewXP HBM MLM TestXP XPDiff
25,216 0.75 0.200 25,215 0.91
26,459 0.75 0.200 26,460 -0.91
83,205 0.75 0.600 83,205 -0.45
116,159 0.75 0.800 116,160 -0.91
151,874 0.75 1.000 151,875 -1.14
158,700 0.75 1.000 158,700 0.00
165,674 0.75 1.000 165,675 -1.14
172,798 0.75 1.000 172,800 -2.27
180,074 0.75 1.000 180,075 -1.14
187,500 0.75 1.000 187,500 0.00
195,074 0.75 1.000 195,075 -1.14
202,800 0.75 1.000 202,800 0.00
210,674 0.75 1.000 210,675 -0.56
218,700 0.75 1.000 218,700 0.00
442,406 0.75 1.950 442,406 -0.69
489,214 0.75 2.080 489,216 -1.56


Examining this data it can be hypothesized that the MLM for the first level of cyan is 0.8 and the next is 0.6 and then 0.4 (possibly a glitch in data) and lastly 0.2.

It can also be guessed that the HBM for lvl 56 and lvl 57 is 0.95, this would mean the XP during these levels has hardly changed from pre-patch levels.

It can also be assumed that when you are killing mobs that are (Your_level - 5) or greater then you see an increase in the amount of XP you will receive. It seems for all mobs below this level no change has occurred to the XP given aside from the Hell-level Balancing Modifier.

More data please. :)

[hhh]

Im on a pretty big work project for atleast the next 48 hrs so I won't have any new data until atleast its over, nor will I be able to verify the 41-46 data by my 56 until afterwords.

However, the same 56 that I used to collect that data will likly be 57 this week, thus ensuring the 1.0/1.0 ratio and same ZEM to not allow any skewing of collected data whatsoever.

In the meantime I think Im gonna go find this race/class chart to make life easier for everyone ;)

A further question I have, is collecting any data for some toon in the 30s futile? Will it help our endeavurs at all?

Making a 56 toon kill something higher than it for solo xp isn't the easiest thing in the world, but my setup would allow it. It would be considerably easier to make a 50 or 51 do it though, would it provide the same theory to what we are looking for ?

[Junu Peeth]

To find the class/race multiplier I have been using the two drop down menus on the page that Ratt originally linked to: (I hope it is correct)
http://seq.sourceforge.net/exp.php

Collecting data for a lvl 30ish toon would not be futile but it wouldn't be of any real use in working out the changes that the pacth has just made. It may be useful after we have uncovered the 50ish tables to then go and do the same down to player lvl one and write some new code using those tables to calculate XP gained from a mob. But atm our focus is not there.

As for killing mobs higher than your level, yes data from a lvl 51 toon will be useful but eventually we will need to get data for every level. Without it the multiplier tables will be extrapolation and educated guesses rather than tested data.

Question: all of this data has been collected in the same zone right hhh?

[hhh]

Yes, all the tests so far have been in the same zone.

[SwedishChef]

Oops, sorry about the wrong guess at hell level removal modifier for level 57, heh. I made a wrong assumption about what class mod they were gathered with :(.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Ratt]

Originally posted by Junu Peeth
To find the class/race multiplier I have been using the two drop down menus on the page that Ratt originally linked to: (I hope it is correct)
http://seq.sourceforge.net/exp.php



I'm not sure if Vah Shir or Beastlord is correct (I'm fairly sure it isn't) ... I just put in 10 as a place holder until I got confirmation of the modifier for that Race / Class.

I'm somewhat confused by the above tables though. The level 56 and 60 data don't match up with what I've seen.

I think we need to standardize on the variable we can control.

I ran my tests in Maidens Eye (80 ZEM?) on a 10/10 set of characters.

Example of the discrepency is a level 60 player killing a level 56 MOB. I got 415,808 as the resuling experience in Maidens Eye... the above charts show substantially more than that, though... so it looks like the ZEM is different.

[SwedishChef]

If your 52-56 data is from fee, you might want to type in the actual ZEM/Class Mod he had. ZEM 75 and Class Mod 1.2 are equal to ZEM 90 Class Mod 1.0 (1.2*75=90), but it helps when checking against the original if they are typed in the same way.

[Junu Peeth]

SwedishChef, I couldn't find where he stated his Class/Race/ZEM (I start these posts too late at night usually). If that was the correct ones you stated just tell me and I will change it.

Ratt said:

Example of the discrepency is a level 60 player killing a level 56 MOB. I got 415,808 as the resuling experience in Maidens Eye... the above charts show substantially more than that, though... so it looks like the ZEM is different.

Hmm, the modifiers that we have obtained for lvl 60 characters come from Fee's orginal info post and pre patch and are the basis for all of our data thus far really.

By comparing the XP before and after it was seen that killing a lvl 56 mob now gives a multiplier of 1.56 as compared to before the patch. The same toon was used in the same zone to get this comparative figure so ZEM/class/race should not factor into it.

SwedishChef then postulated that 1.56 = 0.75 * 1.3 * 1.6 which fit nicely into the data as a working model, it may be found to be incorrect at a later date but I see that as a 1% chance of happening.

So if we take you figure of XP gained and put it into the formula for calculating it:
XP = Mob_Level * Mob_Level * Class * Race * ZEM * 1.56
415808 = 56 * 56 * 1 * 1 * ZEM * 1.56
ZEM = 84.995
ZEM ~ 85

Checking this ZEM in the formual we get:
XP = 56 * 56 * 1 * 1 * 85 * 1.56
XP = 415833.6

Difference between Recorded value and the theoretical value assuming a 85 ZEM:
XPDiff = 415808 - 415833.6
XPDiff = -25.6

This is a large difference for recorded XP (under 2 is better) but statistically its relelvant. Perhaps it would be good to redo the killing of the lvl 56 mob and confirm that it gave 415,808 XP.

[SwedishChef]

Fee posted ZEM/Class Mod in his 4/9 data. Since he wanted to use the 6/9 data to compare with, I kinda assumed he used the same zone/char.

By the way, if we look back on the 4/9 data, we have a datapoint there for level 58 mobs. Only problem is we can't know if it is still accurate to use it, or if they changed the higher levels of the bonus when they scrapped the lower parts of it. We have data for two bonus levels where it is unchanged though, so it is probably a valid datapoint.

[hhh]

im back. The suspected problem between 41-46 is correct, looks like I fat-fingered some (something I'm continually doing I'm afraid). Was real quick with this but heres what I seen yesterday

Same 56 PC
39 5,389 lt blue
41 102,204 lt blue
42 123,166 blue (? not verified)
43 140,524
44 147,136
46 160,546
51 310,351
52 338,670

also a few kills in Maidens with same PC
51 290,954
53 345,443

more to come

[rizwank]

hmm... two diff values for 51.. did you zone each time?

Forthat matter, what zone was the first kills in .. maybe a ZEM?

[Junu Peeth]

The ZEM he has used for every other post and for the first series of data in his last post was 80.

Looking at the two pieces of data now for lvl 51 mobs:

80 * x = 310,351
y * x = 290,954

Solve for y:
y = 290,954 / x
y = 290,954 / (310,351 / 80)
y = 74.99998
2nd ZEM (Maidens Eye) ~75

I will post more about the data he has reported later.

[Junu Peeth]

The reason why the ZEM for all of hhh's other kills was 80:

Firstly, hhh revealed to me in a personal message that his level 60 character is a 10/11 and his level 56 character is a 10/10.

Taking just one of the pieces of data that hhh reported from his lvl 60 char.

hhh reported that his lvl 60 char (10/11) killed a lvl 50 mob and received 165,000 XP.

We already know what the multipliers for a lvl 60 player is: 0.75 and no other multiplier applies when killing a level 50 mob.

Therefore:
XP = Mob_level * Mob_level * Race_mod * Class_mod * ZEM * 0.75
165000 = 50 * 50 * 1.0 * 1.1 * ZEM * 0.75
ZEM = 80

I just wanted to clear up why I have been using a ZEM of 80 for all of hhh's kills (up until his last post and reported data).

This also means that as described in my post above the ZEM from Maiden's Eye is 75.

[Junu Peeth]

Originally posted by hhh
im back. The suspected problem between 41-46 is correct, looks like I fat-fingered some (something I'm continually doing I'm afraid). Was real quick with this but heres what I seen yesterday

Same 56 PC
39 5,389 lt blue
41 102,204 lt blue
42 123,166 blue (? not verified)
43 140,524
44 147,136
46 160,546
51 310,351
52 338,670

also a few kills in Maidens with same PC
51 290,954
53 345,443

more to come

I want to address each entry of hhh on its own.

Lvl 39 ; 5389XP
I have no idea how this fits into the progression at this point in time, it seems like a very low value for XP.

Lvl 41 ; 102204XP
Lvl 43 ; 140524XP
Lvl 44 ; 147136XP
Lvl 51 ; 310351XP
This is exactly what was predicted

Lvl 42 ; 123166XP (? not verified)
This seems off, the amount that was predicted was 134064XP.

Lvl 46 ; 160546XP
Predicted value was 160816XP, which is a difference of 270XP. I can't explain the difference at this time. It may be an error hhh made when recording the data or it may be an anomlay we haven't identified yet.

Lvl 52 ; 338670XP
New data, using it reveals a MLM for lvl 52 mobs killed by a lvl 56 player of 1.648 (almost exactly)

also a few kills in Maidens with same PC
Lvl 51 ; 290954XP
Lvl 53 ; 345443XP

The mob level 51 data helps to find that the ZEM for Maiden's Eye is 75.

Using this ZEM helps us find that the MLM for lvl 53 mobs killed by a lvl 56 player is 1.726(almost exactly)

To summarise for lvl 56 characters:
The HBM (Hell-level Balancing Modifier) is still at 0.95;
The MLM (Mob Level Modifier) for mob levels 41 to 50 is 1.0;
The MLM for mob level 51 is 1.57
The MLM for mob level 52 is 1.648
The MLM for mob level 53 is 1.726

Using the values above, XP can be described and calculated with a variance no greater than 1.06 XP.
1.06 / 345443 = 0.0003%

[rizwank]

Any thoughts to whether the MLM increase is linear?

[SwedishChef]

Within the bonus region, it appears rather linear... but can't say for sure yet since it is hard to guess at what happens at the upper levels of the bonus region.

For the level 56, it appears the MLM (Mul2 and Mul3 in my original post, but might want to scrap that division, I don't see a reason to keep them separate at the moment since I can't factorize them out for a level 56) goes up with 0.078 between level 51 and 52, and between 52 and 53. Between 53 and 56 it goes up with 0.077 * 3, but that is after I try to mix data from different suppliers (corrected for zone modifiers). Appears rather linear.

For the level 60, it appears as if the MLM goes up with 0.13 per level, but very low data. It would fit if you check against the level 58 value fee got inbetween the 4 and 6 september patches, assuming that hasn't changed though.

[Junu Peeth]

Aye, I have done away with the Mul2 and Mul3 separate values as they no longer fall into a distinguishable pattern. After we have all the MLM tables then we may have time to discover why the tables are they way they are.

[Kawfup]

LOADING. PLEASE WAIT...

This thread is funny 8) Someone pointed me at this board and I decided to check it out. Interesting little thread, but I have a couple observations. You know, I'm a longtime Software Engineer by trade myself, but I don't care enough to try to sniff the packets of Everquest for any purpose whatsoever. Yeah, might be interesting just from an informational standpoint to see how Verant solved some of the issues I'm sure they might have, but that's about it. Other than that I simply play the game and get a warm fuzzy about whether or not the experience gains are faster or slower than before.

For what it's worth, my observation is that in the past few weeks experience has ROCKED for me. MUCH faster than it had been the month or two before September. I ZOOMED thru 57 in Chardok, and am making real fast strides through 58 as well. Shoot, the other day on the way to Royals twice I gained about 3 blues of exp and 2 yellows of AA exp in about 4 hours, and that was in a raid.

If I duo with a 60 pally near zoneout I get about 4 blues every 3 hours or so (no exact numbers since I just look up now and then), but I KNOW it's much faster than it was before. And the mobs are for the most part dark blue.

That's all I need to know. I could fire up Etherpeek or something else and start worrying about it, but I figure the time I would spend researching the amount of experience lost or gained would be experience I would be losing not actually PLAYING the game.

Some of the details are interesting, I must admit.

Just my 2cents.

Kawfup O'Loughee
Tank
200 brewing, 200 Alcohol Tolerance.
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