What was the change this time?

[Resiliant]

Out of curiosity, What exactly did SoE do to our packets in the latest patch? What kind of compression is being used? How did it break thinks in SEQ so thorougly?

R

[quackrabbit]

It's unlikely the exact details will be posted here (but I could be wrong). I would suggest lurking in irc to get these answers - but it's sufficient to say with a new expansion coming out soon SoE will be making every attempt to break SEQ for it's release.

QR

[fester]

Vast majority of the details have already been posted.
One should use the search.

[spungee]

ok, can everyone pleez stop telling everyone to use the fucking search? if people don't get answers, most likely they'll either stop asking, or discover the search button all by themselves.
Anyway it's driving me friggin nutz!! I don't want to read new posts just to see it's someone telling some dork to use the search, it's better that it's some newb_03 asking stupid questions

[Mr. Suspicious]

If people don't get answers, most likely they'll either stop asking, or discover the search button all by themselves.

Reality and years of experience in this matter proves you wrong on both statements

What you are suggesting is:

- Don't answer ANY questions so people asking will go away (other then not being helpfull in any way: they won't, they rather bump their posts into oblivian)
- Don't explain to people that there is a search feature on messageboards (which obviously they didn't know about)

I don't see how not replying is helpfull to anyone in anyway. Poiting out there's a searchfeature however is. So I suggest you stop bitching at those who are helping people in answering their questions by pointing them to the place where they can find their answers: the search feature.

[CybMax]

Well.. My suggestion about how to get rid of alot of postings would perhaps be this :

Make 1 sticky post reading "Current status of SEQ Project after patch 28. january 2003"
And devs can put in a post about "we are doing this and that atm."
Perhaps everyone would find it easier to just keep an eye on one post and see current status.

I know i am a tad afraid i actually will miss out on an eventual fix, cos since all of the programmers are linux d00des, they have a natural born tendency to put some gibberish in a post regarding something completely different, and THEN flame everyone about not using search..

If you do a search about "seq not working".. how many posts do YOU think come up? Is it any interesting for me to read a 4 page thread about someone thinking spells_en.txt is an interesting read, and then a post in the middle reads something like "btw.. cvs root is updated with the latest fix"..

Linux d00des are like that.. Try asking a single question about something someone actually knows an easy fix for on *any* linux board.. Instead of the person knowing how to fix it easy reply something like : Goto ftp://someftpsite.com/linux/patches/ and download the "thisisthefix.patch" file. Install by doing "patch whatever command -l" .. You get 10000 persons flaming this one doode for asking.. Thus taking up A LOT more time, and A LOT more space in count of messages..

Flaming anyone is hardly the "best" solution.. But i recon it works for the guys that know it all, and uses 10 minutes posting about how stoopid the person is that dont use the search feature.

Well.. Thats just what i think.. :)

[who_me_use_seq]

Clearly Spumgee with his 9 posts here would be the defintitive source on this. Mr. Suspicious, those of you who have been here for years dealing wih fools and trolls obviously don't know how to handle things.

We should count ourselves blessed that Spumgee has seen fit to point out the error of our ways.

[quackrabbit]

Originally posted by fester
Vast majority of the details have already been posted.
One should use the search.

Vast majority != exact

Posting exact details here would be counter productive.

QR

[spungee]

stupid suggestions in my above post, yes, I _could_ excuse myself by saying this is my 5th day in a row without nicotine. Just trying to say that, since I'm feeling that way about some of the replies, someone else prolly is too.

Mr suspicious, I have....umm, sigh, this is pointless...I'll just fade back into the shadows, where I'm used to being, instead of trying to contribute with anything at all.

and good luck to the devs, wish I could be as talented as some of you.

[Resiliant]

Just for everyone's FYI...

I'm not exactly a n00b poster, been here for over a year. I am well versed in the use of the search key, and use it liberally. I posed here simply *because* i coulnd't find anything regarding the posted information after spending about 20 minutes looking for it.

Perhaps my brain wasn't working on all 3 cylinders... that happens some times /shrug. Not at all put off by the 'Use the Search Key', because I do. If there are LOTS of threads with the requested information, and their post dates are *prior* to my post, then my apologies for asking. If not, then just note: Flaming without substantiating your accusation with examples is ineffective and actually labels you as someone with more attitude than intelligence.

R

[Amadeus]

Don't worry, they're wrong. I've been watching the board intensely since the last patch and I have seen no definative postings as to "what was changed" this time. In fact, there has been only one or two people even speculating, and I wouldn't even call those postings educated guessing.

[high_jeeves]

Actually, there has been atleast one resonable accurate post... The devs are busy working on it tho, not posting here so that everyone feels that their dick is being rubbed the right way. If you need updated status information, go chat with a dev on IRC. The granularity of posts here is going to be something on the order of:

"Its fixed"

That's about it.. there arent going to be any whitepapers written, or descirptions of the packet changes drawn up. They changed, they are being worked on. If you think you can help, go to IRC, otherwise, wait patiently until the devs fix it.

--Jeeves

[Rxdude777]

I just have to say I have no programming knowledge at all. I rely on these forums for information. So if the people responsible for keeping SEQ working get pleasure flaming dumb question askers, more power to you. My hat goes off to the incredible job you do, and to your kindness in sharing it with the masses like me.

[QuerySEQ]

Searching ( what has been changed )...

Mainly reveals posts of people asking "what has been changed" and many more replies of people saying "Search" and very little of people answering the question at hand.

So, instead of my usual bitching about people flaming and being unconstructive to the rest of the masses.. I will make an attempt "Albeit feeble and soon to be flamed by the rest of you guru's" to answer to the best of my knowledge.

SOE changed SOME of the compression, and as with every patch, the offset changed too. Some of the STRUCTS have also been changed in size ( thus the compression ).

It MAY NOT have been "just to break SEQ", I seriously doubt that SOE is spending vast amount of resources to defeat a project like SEQ that maybe 10 to 15 percent of their players use IF that much.

The OVERHEAD required to make changes to the code just to 'thwart' SEQ is sooo great, it is "cost prohibitive". Instead.. Think of these possibilities.

With the additions soon to come with the Legacy of Ykesha coming, (i.e. read the patch messages about it.. some are Guild Management Tool, new Races, etc...etc...). The code changes are to do several things.

#1. Graphics Lag, caused by high rendering means that the packets need to be made smaller. In order to do that, compression is used, optimizing code structure, removing useless and hardly used objects...

#2. Additional Races. This will make the biggest effect. Globals (.s3d) will have to be modified, new zones (for newbie chars of the new race "froggies") This makes many changes, both to the .exe and primary zone files as well as structure changes to the driver that makes the game send rendering information to your video card.

#3. New Features. Guild Management Tool.. and others... This is going to change and add interface modifications, ROOM has to be made to add features and to keep the game small enough to run on the required PC's. Already affects of some of the modifications are being felt. More Graphics Lag, Crashing to Desktop, UIFiles messing up. Spell Books not closing, Mobs that can go through walls ( more occurances than before )... MANY EQ CLient Bugs are being reported.

#4. Optimizing current code. Normally, before a major upgrade, 'they' try to optimize current code base in order for THOSE issues not to affect what they are adding to.

With every release, you can bet that more changes will occur. Some of it is just moving code around to make room without significantly increasing the size of the application.

I dont think SOE is wasting their time trying to make it impossible to run SEQ, they'll toss it a passing thought, maybe make a minor change that will be surely detected and "worked around". But nothing Major.

I heard mention of Patience. That is a good idea. If we all use a little patience ( answering posts instead of spending your time flaming ). Then I am sure that it will be alot easier to deal with those that don't know how to use SEARCH.

The most important thing to do is just wait. Think of these little changes as adding some really neat stuff to EQ 1. I for one am looking forward to the Guild Management Tool. Been wanting one for a long time.

And remember.. SOE won't spend ALOT of money, researching ways to 'kill SEQ'. by the time they do, DEV and some of the rest of us will have figured a way around it. And, it doesn't MAKE SOE any money, plus.. it isn't going to change the way things go in the Game at such a level, that it embalances the play.

Besides.... anyone ever hear an OFFICIAL statement that SEQ use is Bannable? I read through the EULA, saw a few 'grey areas', but that is about it.

Hope this answers the question about what was changed, why it was changed (possibilities) and why not to worrry if SOE is trying to stop SEQ use.

[Mr Guy]

<><><><><><>
#1. Graphics Lag, caused by high rendering means that the packets need to be made smaller. In order to do that, compression is used, optimizing code structure, removing useless and hardly used objects...

#2. Additional Races. This will make the biggest effect. Globals (.s3d) will have to be modified, new zones (for newbie chars of the new race "froggies") This makes many changes, both to the .exe and primary zone files as well as structure changes to the driver that makes the game send rendering information to your video card.
<><><><><><><>

I'm not a rocket scientist but your first two points are stupid. Graphics lag has nothing to do with whether they send 15 bits or 64 bits. Packet size and network lag have diddly squat to do with rendering times. Same for additional races. Have an enum to go to 17, or, dare I say it, a million billion, won't have any change except for making the field in the message bigger to accomodate the additional bits, if needed.

3 & 4 are good points though. I doubt they made the changes purely for SEQ. They probably made them because their netcode was written by a third grader on crack. Of course, lets not forget who caused to spaghetti out of control; If they didn't have to check every bit that get sent so the boys over at hackersquest wouldn't be able to bank from an_orc_pawn01 while running really fast and pickpocketing from across the zone, they may not have to do so much server side checking in the first place.

At least, in my version of the world that's what happens.

[QuerySEQ]

#1. should have been code information, not transmittable packets. Each render request goes through the same old VESA command structs, (why? I don't know.. with the new particle engine changes, I don't see why regular VESA calls are made)

Its not like I am a rocket scientist eithere.. LOL. The calls maybe just for the introduction of a request and not actually used. (MAN do I wish I could get the source for EQ.. LOL)..

#2. Yeah.. that looked a little lame.. What I meant by that, is adding those new features they need to make changes to the .exe and the Globals. The Engine Drivers for the added textures both new, old and revised. Why? I believe it was nVidia that made that happen with their code drivers, so did ATI and other Video Card manufacturers. The particle engine in EQ and the DX driver that runs it, are proprietery based, that means that each change or addition you give to the game, need to be supported by the video drivers. the eqdx driver gets changed alot, to "augment" the Video Card's native driver. Thus, when they add specific graphics changes to the game by adding to the globals (.s3d) and new textures, they usually ( not always ) have to make changes to the EQDX driver to support it.

Particle Engines and Textures not properly "parsed???" or optimized.. (or whatever) could be the cause for much of the Graphics Lag. Even people with ATI Radeon's with 128mb to GeForce 4's with 128, see these little "quircks".

Turning off the models and particles help alot, so it just is something that I think they are working on. Re-Organizing the CODE to make room is more than likely what is "breaking" SEQ.

SEQ relies on certain "constants" in order to function. Since EQ is very dynamic in its changes, making even a code placement change, will "break" SEQ. ( Actually, SEQ is not broken, it just is looking for a particular thing where it USED to be and not finding it.) As well as not seeing the compression etc...etc..


Alot can be learned by these new and upcoming changes. I look at the information I have gathered, and have decided that MAYBE, making a Module based SEQ ( where structs are cased in modules ) may allow updates to be resolved easier. Sort of like the old ".INI" features that you can make in the eqclient.ini..

Do you think?

[high_jeeves]

QuerySEQ: You are way off base here, NONE of the changes that are video related effect ShowEQ in any way.. I didnt even follow what you are talking about with relation to particle systems, and VESA calls with respect to ShowEQ..

1) Umm.. EQ doesnt make direct VESA calls.. actually, nobody on the windows side uses the VESA standard to do any graphics related operations..

2) The EQDX is more than likely a graphics abstraction layer that is used by EQ, NOT A DRIVER.. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DRIVERS. It probably contains some alternate paths for rendering on different platforms, but the core reason for it is more likely a legacy one: to allow for seperate pluggable DX and Glide renderers.

Turning particles off helps alot, because particles are all (by nature) alpha-surfaces, which are expensive on most video rendering hardware. Turning models off helps alot because your video hardware has to translate, light, render, and rasterize fewer polygons per scene. These dont have anything to do with ShowEQ. Changing these things doesnt effect ShowEQ in any way.

The only thing ShowEQ depends on to work are two things:

Packet structure
Encoding scheme (to include opcode scheme through compression/cyphering)

When either these two things change, SEQ will break. Making SEQ more modular will not change this in any way, shape or form.

[cbreaker]

Ok ok ok let me try explaining why SEQ is broken. I know nothing about EQ opcodes or the packet structures, so I'm obviously qualified here.

#1. Old floppy drives cause "video lag" due to a misuse of the flux capacitor. SoE is trying to reprogram the mouse to handle this, and thus SEQ can't decode any more packets via the USB interface.

#2. On most networks, namely token ring networks running the ChaosNET protocol, SEQ has trouble detecting your EQ session since the last patch. This is being worked on by the developers using Wang mainframes running VMS. Since this problem affects 99% of the SEQ users, it is a hot item.

#3. Since the video card obviously handles all the network traffic, nVidia and ATI are also jumping on the "break SEQ" bandwaggon. Recently they changed the way UDP works between the keyboard and the monitor, thus causing yet another headache. Those of you with Matrox and 3DFX cards are unaffected by this.

[high_jeeves]

Hahahaha.. lol cbreaker..

I hear that upgrading to USB 2, and changing your video card to a Voodoo2, has resolved all of ShowEQ's problems.

--Jeeves

[QuerySEQ]

Okay.. I wasnt talking about SEQ guys.. LOL.. I was talking about EQ. My Bad..

The changes on EQ and how some affect SeQ, and how others change EQ too.

the VESA calls are still there. ( in EQ) not SeQ.. SEQ just reads the EQ box... so I know Video, etc.. have very little if ANY bearing on SEQ's functionality.

Aye.. I know that no one in the Windows environment uses VESA/Legacy, thats why I stated I didn't KNOW. I will have to play with ASM alot more to understand more about it. But, I am terrible at the interpretation. I'll see if I can grab the MX BX and CT's and display them here so someone can tell me what I am looking at. It reminds me of the old DOOM and DOOM2 FX, MF stuff. Which, from my limited understanding were the VESA calls to the wonderful Stealth24 type video cards, STB Nitro's, ATI Rage's those wonderful Matrox cards (*cough*, *cough*).... LOL

Anyway.. Thanks for the clarity

[high_jeeves]

I dont understand what your hangup with VESA is.. try using VESA in a windows environment.. you will immediately get a protection violation. All graphics related stuff goes through DirectX, and from DirectX to the video drivers.. trying to use VESA would break the Windows HAL, and cause bad-bad-things to happen...

VESA is used for DOS games, not windows games, period, end of story.

--Jeeves