Current Status

[Sixes]

Am I right in thinking that SEQ is currently unusable? I've seached recent messages and see many comments to the effect of "we're working on it" but nothing saying it's fixed.

An announcement as to the current status would be most useful.

[StarZman]

/em Hide :eek:

[Sixes]

Originally posted by StarZman
[B]/em Hide
Oops, did I say the wrong thing? :confused:

[high_jeeves]

An announcement as to the current status would be most useful.


Gimme another 20 minutes to finish my script.. Once completed, it will post to these forums saying "ShowEQ is not yet fixed" every 3 seconds, until it is fixed. Is 3 seconds a fast enough update time for everyone here, or would you prefer that the status is updated more frequently? Really, its what ever is most convienent for you guys...

--Jeeves

[Sixes]

Originally posted by high_jeeves

Really, its what ever is most convienent for you guys...

Not sure that wouldn't make a mess of the boards. One pinned 'Status' message might be better, especially for those of us who only visit these boards when something seems to be broken.

[high_jeeves]

There will be a status message posted when it is fixed, in the announcements forum, just like it has always been.... ShowEQ is in two states, fixed, or broken. If its not fixed, guess which state its in? Any post that gets made will serve no purpose, as everyone will still post asking for an updated status... its broken, wait patiently until they fix it. When they fix it, they will post, and their will be a CVS update. If there is no post, and no CVS update, then it isnt fixed.. very simple..

--Jeeves

[Sixes]

Originally posted by high_jeeves
ShowEQ is in two states, fixed, or broken. If its not fixed, guess which state its in?
One of two: still fixed from the last fix or broken. What may be the patently obvious to those who frequent these boards regularly is nonetheless baffling to us who visit infrequently. But thank you for the status report. I shall now shut up and wait for an announcement.

[high_jeeves]

One of two: still fixed from the last fix or broken.


Umm.. if it is still fixed from the last one, then why did you come here and post about when it will be fixed? Did you check CVS for an update? Or did you just decide that it would be easier to have somebody cater directly to your needs, so you wouldnt have to waste any of your precious time?

--Jeeves

[Sixes]

Originally posted by high_jeeves
Umm.. if it is still fixed from the last one, then why did you come here and post about when it will be fixed?
I didn't. I asked if it was broken. I've never asked a programmer when something would be fixed.

Did you check CVS for an update?
Of course I did. It updated. It didn't work. Then I looked here for confirmation that it was not a problem of my own making. Then you decided to flame me. But you answered the question, so it was all worth it, wasn't it?

[Necro23]

Yo, Jeeves - chill.

Take yer blasted 'tude and shove it. We know it's
not fixed yet. Just because the lead-in says expect
to be flamed doesn't mean you should...unless you're
into that sort of thing...and judging by the tenor of
the vast majority of your posts, you enjoy it a tad
too much. So stop playing "Lord of the Board". k?

Necro23

[SeqTester]

The reason so many people flame here is being this board is for people having Issues and Problems.

Not for ScripKiddies that got SEQ from Playerauction or E-Bay.

these posts make it hard for others lookign to see if it is fixed and cause more posts like this, its an endless cycle.

PS: this is not to explain or condone flamers, just my 2cp.

[Necro23]

ST - I agree completely. Yeah it aint't fixed yet, and yeah a "status?" post
wasn't a smart thing to do. Still - dunno - more than a little tired of the "Holier
Than Thou" Jeeves, I guess.

Necro23

[SeqTester]

Well, you have to remember. Some of us are here EVERYDAY, even when SEQ is working. I am one of those that at least checks the boards daily. And when people come here and with there 1st post ask a question that been answered about 10 times that day, well to keep it short. IT GETS OLD!!!

[qwerty]

ummm, in case you haven't noticed, Jeeves _is_ the "Lord of the Board", or one of them anyway.

[dirfrops]

Folks, take this advice.

1)If your seq isnt working, look at the forum post headings...you will see clues as to its current status...such as threads called, "It's down, It's broken," or something like that.

2)If you see no threads then go into the most recent ones and it will DEFINITELY tell you that it's down, it's broken.

3)Once you establish its down and its broken...just hit the homepage and look for the last post date and time of the ANNOUNCEMENTS forum...since its still reading 1/28, I know its not fixed yet.

4)Sixes, really...i mean really man...don't you know how to SEARCH (roflmao)

[Necro23]

It's one thing to issue a default "RTFM!", but quite another to take
raging dumps on people just for the sake of it. I'm sure it
does get old saying RTFM all the time when a bad/dumb post
goes up, but RTFM sure beats the heck out of borderline
text-based sadism - moderator-admin, or just one of us
ordinary readers or posters - there's a point when it all
goes out of bounds.

I might be a bit on edge because of the shuttle going down
on reentry this morning. Just a tad tired of random acts
of cruelty. Ok, back to lurk mode for me.

Necro23

[baelang]

sixes isn't exactly a scriptkiddie. he is an active contributer to the codebase.

[SeqTester]

I was not calling anyone anything. I was more implying the sheeple that come and Bahhh.. there heads in to post "IS it fixed yet" without even looking at any posts.

Sorry Sixes if it sounded like this was pointed at you. This was not really ment to be towards any one person. More towards the people that need there hand held everytime there box "Someone else" setup isn't working and can't find/search for stuff that is usually in one of the last few posts posted.

I like the bottleneck of SEQ so everyone and there grandmother(Being they all play) would not have this. Not to give Me an even bigger advantage, more like I have paid my dues to keep mine working (Not as much as they Devs have) and believe everyone else should also even if it is just reading and learning a bit of C.

So Sorry if I offended anyone this was not ment as that.

[Xalpus]

actually i'd be interested in an ida of what they changed more to satisfy my curiosity ..

[EQDoze]

Originally posted by Xalpus
actually i'd be interested in an ida of what they changed more to satisfy my curiosity ..


In a nutshell:

They've added another layer of encryption. This particular layer also encrypts the opcodes, and it utilizes an incoherent algorithm. It's not that this layer of encryption is complicated, it's that it's convoluted.

The scheme they use has been discovered, but it's not in the codebase yet. It's likely it won't be for a while. There really isn't any point to fixing it now with 2 patches coming that will likely alter that scheme again.

Hence, ShowEQ is indeed broken. No GPS, no decoding...

[Amadeus]

They've added another layer of encryption. This particular layer also encrypts the opcodes, and it utilizes an incoherent algorithm. It's not that this layer of encryption is complicated, it's that it's convoluted.


Hmm...I was thinking that the new aspect was some sort of new compression, not encryption. Otherwise, woudldn't MacroQuest have been busted as well?

[high_jeeves]

No, macroquest reads things directly out of memory.. this is not affected by compression/encyption in any way, shape, or form.

--Jeeves

[seqmage]

Originally posted by EQDoze



In a nutshell:

They've added another layer of encryption. This particular layer also encrypts the opcodes, and it utilizes an incoherent algorithm. It's not that this layer of encryption is complicated, it's that it's convoluted.

The scheme they use has been discovered, but it's not in the codebase yet. It's likely it won't be for a while. There really isn't with 2 patches coming that will likely alter that scheme again.

Hence, ShowEQ is indeed broken. No GPS, no decoding...

This has been one of the most informitive posts on this recent breakage that i have read.
What I dont get is where you say
any point to fixing it now .... hmm, seems that SOE has us. Lets say a fix is put out, Even if it works for one day, then SOE does change packet structure again during these next 2 patches, It could show that they are really out to break SEQ and not just improve 'the game'. If we dont fix it, they win. Because even after these next 2 patches, and a fix is released to get SEQ working, they could patch again to break SEQ by having a "emergency" patch.
Is this new "encryption" on the packets is a forshadowing of whats to come with EQII? After playing EQ with SEQ, I would be hard pressed to play EQII with out SEQII!!!

[high_jeeves]

Umm.. seqmage.. they could do this at any time.. The point is, they dont make all these network changes to break ShowEQ.. they arent going to bring down the servers, and constantly screw with their net code just for ShowEQ... They made changed to try to fix lag problems over slow connections, those changes broke ShowEQ.. ShowEQ will be fixed, and all will be well until the next time they modify their net code. If they were really going to change packet structure every patch just to screw with ShowEQ, dont you think they would have already been doing that for the last 3 years?

--Jeeves

[seqmage]

If they were really going to change packet structure every patch just to screw with ShowEQ, dont you think they would have already been doing that for the last 3 years?

Not really, up untill recently EQ was Verant, not so much SOE.
Now that EQ is heavily branded with SOE on it, SEQ maybe a thorn in their side.
SOE did need to improve the lag yes.. but if they could improve lag and break SEQ.. would be a bouns.

Being that they have been able to read these boards and see that they did stop SEQ in its tracks, means they know they dont need to do much to the packet structure to stop us for awhile.
I am not saying they are afraid of SEQ.. just that they would like to see it go away. The new expansion is proof of that.. look at what they did with EQW... seems that a lot of people were using that program... and there is a new mapping system, and bank thing.. seems they are adding more content over this little 56k pipe and need to get as much data in there as possible, but protect it in a way that it cant be altered. Encryption is good for something like that.
I was really glad to get a technical explination from EQDoze. Was kinda refreshing to know how it broke. I can tell you this much, i have no clue, 'yet' how to fix it. But at least with info like this i can start to learn to look in the right direction.

[seqcleric]

As well as the guy that mentioned exactly what was wrong, your last post really was informative as well. Many of us are simply looking to see IF showeq is fixable, not really looking for when it will be fixed. You answered that it is indeed fixable and I, personally, am VERY grateful for that information.

A simple suggestion (gets ready to be flamed) is to put an announcement up that SEQ IS fixable and will be as soon as verant stops jacking with netcode.

You could post that in the amount of time it would take to write half a flame and would make a whole lot of people feel a whole lot better.

Please don't misunderstand me, I sincerely appriciate all the work you guys do and wish I had the talent to code well enough to be helpful and save you guys some time. Thanks very much for all your hard work.

Sincerely,
Seqcleric

[CybMax]

Well.. i think this has become some kind of :

I am not schizophrenic .. But that does not mean that the world is not out to kill me.. right.. right!!!

Well.. What would be so interesting for SoE to bust SEQ? What would it acomplishe? Would there be MORE customers that would pay them money? Reading these boards one can see the typical moaner going "ohhh.. i am quitting if this is not fixed.. i am blind without the gps", so i think they would perhaps loose a couple of customers.
Well.. what is next.. Does SEQ make less new people sign up for EQ? If you have not seen EQ, you hardly know what SEQ is about perhaps.. so probably not that either.
Does the mobs die any faster cos of SEQ, so that every SEQ user is all too uuuber? Hardly..

Well.. It is giving seq users and edge on the "never get lost" thing, and perhaps being able to run across a zone without bumping in to the nastiest mobs on the way, but other than that i dont think that SoE really believes that "We must put everything into stopping SEQ! Lets have those "oh so beloved" 2 hour downtimes EVERY day to patch new netcodes".. Right?.. I dont think that Sony "likes" to have emergency patches.. I believe that if they could make 1 patch and everything work (doh.. would be a first tho.. hehe) they would have a party afterwards..

So.. My 2cp goes to the others saying this has nothing to do with "breaking" SEQ..

[Xalpus]

Thanks for the info :) now i can sleep better at night heheh

[who_me_use_seq]

Folks,

The devs have been playing this cat and mouse game with VI / SOE for, what, 3 years now? Have you ever thought that maybe they have a handle on how it is done by now?

We are fortunate enough to have a group of people who work very hard to keep one technical step ahead of the coders at VI / SOE. We are further blessed in that they subscribe to the open source model of software development, and that they don't have the ego problems that lead people to close their development process and not let the users see how they do it.

Now good sense and - Dare I say it? - good manners would dictate that those of us, and this definitely includes me, who are not sufficiently talented to add to the codebase in any meaningful manner sit back and let the devs handle this as they see fit.

Now if you are good enough to crack it I urge you to log onto the IRC channel and offer your services. Come up to speed on what is being done, and release what you do if you are so inclined. If you are not I urge you to STFU and check back here for announcements regarding the fix state.

[dirfrops]

/amen who_me_use_seq

[dirfrops]

Actually seqcleric....

If they would post something on the main page, like some flash blinky sign that says....

STILL BORKED!!!

It would tell people to go away and Shut Your Fuckin' Pie Hole and not ask...

But then again it might pose another problem...wtf does BORKED mean would be the newest thread of the day, therefore pissing the devs off even more and maybe even just deciding to say, FUCK YOU ALL...ITS FIXED, now kiss our asses cause we ain't posting the code for all you lazy pieces of whiney shit.

Anyhow...have a great day, /applauds devs, and those that have nothing intelligent to say...

S.Y.F.P.H

[cbreaker]

Originally posted by dirfrops
Actually seqcleric....

If they would post something on the main page, like some flash blinky sign that says....

STILL BORKED!!!

It would tell people to go away and Shut Your Fuckin' Pie Hole and not ask...


People would still ask why it's broken, how they can help with zero knowledge of C/C++, and when it will be fixed. Some others will say "All I do is use GPS when will THAT be fixed?"

The only way to stop it is to A) Close the forums. Or B) Tell every single person that asks a redundant question to use the search feature, thereby eliminating one more person from the "I dun know search thingy" pool.

[EQDoze]

Originally posted by seqmage
.... hmm, seems that SOE has us. Lets say a fix is put out, Even if it works for one day, then SOE does change packet structure again during these next 2 patches, It could show that they are really out to break SEQ and not just improve 'the game'. If we dont fix it, they win. Because even after these next 2 patches, and a fix is released to get SEQ working, they could patch again to break SEQ by having a "emergency" patch.
Is this new "encryption" on the packets is a forshadowing of whats to come with EQII? After playing EQ with SEQ, I would be hard pressed to play EQII with out SEQII!!!


The reason I said there was no sense in fixing SEQ now is because it will certainly break as a result of Thursday's patch -- Tuesday's patch is supposed to be server side only, but it could very well break any fixes put in now as well.

I don't think they're going to bother with breaking SEQ intentionally. They're certainly not disappointed that it happened, but that wasn't their intention. The fact of the matter is the EQ protocol is bloated. They were trying to reduce the required bandwidth.

The reason I know the patches will break SEQ is because the protocol, as it exists now, has some flaws, and maybe even buggy. That implies another change in packet structure (at the very least).

SEQ is fixable, just not immediately. It could be days, it could be weeks. Only time will tell.