On the subject of flaming...

[Ratt]

The flaming is getting a little out of hand, I think... and needs to be toned down a bit.

As such, I've created a new forum, which you've probably already noticed. I will move threads I think are fairly useless to that forum, and anyone is free to go nuts on those threads.

If the thread isn't in that forum, however, I would like people to be a little more tolerant or, barring that, at little less vitrolic in the other forums when replying. Not so quick to tear someone apart in one of the "normal" forums is a big plus.

You all know I'm one of the first to jump on stupdity and I can be pretty vitrolic when the mood strikes me, but I think some of the attacks have gone from being neutral or helpful in "educating stupid people" to just attacks for the sake of attacking. I don't want the boards to become a pit of infighting, thus further reducing the usefulness of the message boards as a valuable resource.

I'm really against censorship in any form, which is why I won't delete/close threads 99% of the time, but I think moving them to their own forum is a good compromise to the censorship vs rampant stupdity/useless post problem. I am enlist the aid of a couple of you regulars as well to assist in this, as I don't necessarily ready every single thread in great detail due to time constraints (although I try to).

[QuerySEQ]

I like that idea. I think too many jump on the flame vs instruction side of a post.

Oh, I know their will be a good number of stupidity and repaeated responses. What about a "New to SEQ forum" for those that are just starting out?

Sort of segmenting elites from newbies?

Maybe a ranking system? Those that qualify as ELITE could post on their boards, and those that do not can only READ and not post?

[fgay trader]

Let's see... a new forum for fairly useless, "free to go nuts", "tear someone apart" posts, where stupidity is rampant and attacks are personal.

Ratt, you should've just called it "The Sullon Zek" forum :p

[Delmar]

I agree some posts are getting out of hand. I never post here, only browse (until now), and while doing so, the tension and frustration of some people is very evident when you read some of the heated posts. It's almost like people are going through SEQ withdrawal. One thread in particular I would like to mention, had High_Jeeves ranting "use the search tool", and going off at someone for bringing something up that I found quite interesting. As I browsed further, I found an entire thread that turned from one person asking a question, to yet more flames, specifically from the aforementioned.

I would like to say, that having topics such as the use of that "Handle" program brought up (even if it was old news) is exactly what I like to see. I didn't hear anything about it or any other program like it in previous posts, because I probably missed them. I don't read these forums every day of the year, so bringing up and making reference to old news can be as good to me as new news. What good are forums with no new posts?

So can we all calm down, get a grip, and start respecting the fact that there are actual human beings who use and enjoy these forums, and don't deserve half the attitude and flaming that I have seen on here lately.

Smile Everyone. You will live longer ! :)

[mxedisn]

Some posters to some of these forums do seem overly fond of flaming. I'll not deny that.

Is there a place for flaming? Certainly there is.

Many of us, I suspect, are so far beyond the ken of the average internet forum user that we consider ourselves superior to all the others, including the others here.

We all run Linux, we can all use a compiler, many of us know C, a few know one or more assembly languages, we all have networks of PC's at home. We're not ants.

Heck... I've got a NeXT on my lan.

Point is, at some point, search or no search (searching seeming to be the single most frequent cause of flaming) even the most experienced, savvy user is going to ask a dumb question.

Before I had 6 machines on a LAN, I had a TRS-80 Model I with 4K of RAM. I didn't know squat then. Now, though, I like to think I know a bit more than squat. We all do.
Remember: The person you're about to flame may be just as knowledgeable about a large number of things as you are yourself.

I know I am :-)

[keymaker]

Originally posted by mxedisn
Some posters to some of these forums do seem overly fond of flaming. I'll not deny that.

Is there a place for flaming? Certainly there is.

Many of us, I suspect, are so far beyond the ken of the average internet forum user that we consider ourselves superior to all the others, including the others here.

We all run Linux, we can all use a compiler, many of us know C, a few know one or more assembly languages, we all have networks of PC's at home. We're not ants.

Heck... I've got a NeXT on my lan.

Point is, at some point, search or no search (searching seeming to be the single most frequent cause of flaming) even the most experienced, savvy user is going to ask a dumb question.

Before I had 6 machines on a LAN, I had a TRS-80 Model I with 4K of RAM. I didn't know squat then. Now, though, I like to think I know a bit more than squat. We all do.
Remember: The person you're about to flame may be just as knowledgeable about a large number of things as you are yourself.

I know I am :-)

<==-- hands mxedisn a brand new 60min tape for his Mod1. :)
god I remember those days, btw did you need the expansion interface LOL

[baelang]

I really miss my NeXT.

[mxedisn]

My NeXT is still up and humming... An original 030 cube upgraded to an 040 with 64MB of ram in it.

If I have to write a document over 10 pages long, I'll still go and sit in front of the next rather than the PC or the Mac. WriteNow is just so much nicer--than just about anything...

If I'm not writing something in WriteNow, I'm probably writing something in vi...

or just using cat.

[jgorrell]

Does this mean high_jeeves wont be reading the other normal forums?

[compuboy86]

Urgh, there is just something I cant STAND about vi....maybe its the whole, "can't click" thing (yeah, I'm young). Don't get me wrong- I am not advocating Office....*strangles the paper clip* Vi *shudders*...just my 2 cents.

Pertaining to the actual topic of the thread- I agree Ratt, except that *personally* I don't think you should waste your time even bothering to move the threads to the redundancy department department. Since its just a bunch of uselss bullshit of people taking posts too personally, it has virtually NO value to those of us who enjoy the boards (new to them as I may be). I don't agree with censorship in the least when its someone's opinion ABOUT SOMETHING IMPORTANT....or even just their thoughts on orange juice (mmmm) But I think we can all agree that telling someone to use the search button in a rude tone throwing in cursewords has no substative value. Delete 'em.

Any thoughts?

Compuboy86

[BitShift]

WTF!! Jesus H Christ , Ratt , USE THE F**ING SEARCH BUTTON!!!! People have already posted about being more considerate to people on the forums before!! Don't any of you morons use the SEARCH BUTTON!

/shoots a gun into the air

Actually, I think the lack of SEQ is causing people to have withdrawals, and be a little grouchy.

[Virusmaster]

Now that was funny BitShift :)

Hey Ratt, just delete the sh*t, it's ok. I don't think many folks come to these boards to chat. We all come here for a little knowlege. If it ain't fillin' my brain with something usefull, feel free to delete it. Nothing personal either way.

Need my ShowEQ fix! AAARRRGGG!!!

I'm thinking the withdraw is settin' in pretty good now, gonna have to get my weedburner out and FLAME! (Just kidding)

[CybMax]

Yes.. i believe sometimes the flaming CAN serve a purpose, but one does not need to flame and humiliate a person by their first mistake..

I am a technician on a small firm building/repairing/supporting our own "brand".. This ultimately leed to some support calls..
And, believe me, i think i have had my turn of complete utterly moronic should-never-be-allowed-near-a-keyboard-again people.. In the likes of the d00de that bought a modem (yeah.. few years ago tho), came home, and could not figure this thing out, so he called us and told me it was not working.. To cut a long story short, i almost got a stroke when the reply was "Doh.. do i need to have one of those computers to get this working?"..

But.. My point is that if i replied to every person that called in asking me a question i find totally moronic with a "DAMN, you got to be the dumbest person on earth.. if you cant figure THAT out".. it would not be popular..
So.. what do one do? One gives subtle "hints" about the persons stupidity in a friendly manner.. "Does it say "Insert Windows98 cd-rom on your screen you say? Well.. Perhaps you could try to insert the Windows98 cd-rom then?" The person will understand that if one actually consentrate a tad on what problem you have, one can work wonders.. And will probably understand their limited capabilities..

So.. instead of the "USE the fucking SEARCH button you fucking retarded l@mer!", one could perhaps reply "Well.. if you actually had bothered to used the "SEARCH" button, you would have gotten links to threads like this : http://whatever.com/somethread " It is a "semi" flame, but also helpful. (Yes.. there will be people not "grasping" this at all, and go at it again, but many would get the "oops.. It is THAT easy to find what i am looking for")

[Mr. Suspicious]

So.. instead of the "USE the fucking SEARCH button you fucking retarded l@mer!", one could perhaps reply "Well.. if you actually had bothered to used the "SEARCH" button, you would have gotten links to threads like this : http://whatever.com/somethread "

This is exactly what is happening here already. People however, insist of regarding those "subtile hints"as some personal flames. *shrug* Hence my statement: "What flames? There's hardly any real flames going off here (some messages "tagged" flame, aren't even anywhere close of a "spark")"

[fgay trader]

CybMax,

I completely understand where your comments are coming from, since I myself spent some time working the IT helpdesk. However, the biggest differences between your job and this project's message board are these:

1. It is your job to deal with (L)users and you get paid for having the nerves of steel when it comes to answering dumb questions. Devs and other knowledgeable people on these boards are helping others out of goodness of their hearts and are not compensated for their time. They are not obligated to anyone to answer any questions, especially the ones that have repeatedly been answered before.

2. The company you work for wants to keep their customers, no matter how dumb they are (the dumber - the better I'm sure). This project is designed in such a way that if your technical expertise is limitted, you are expected to have enough IQ to be able to figure most of the basic things out on your own. If this simple prerequisite cannot be fulfilled, such person is not welcomed here and the SEQ community doesn't want to help them use SEQ and the larger EQ community certainly doesn't need such users.

3. It is unacceptable for you to offend your customers by telling them to RTFM. Here, however, "RTFM", "use search" and "it's already been answered" are not flames, but totally valid subtle hints as you call them, as it tells the person that the information they are looking for is available to them with a little effort.

To sum it all up..... "USE THE SEARCH dammit" :p

[Wendel99]

You guys are trying to justify being rude to people because you think it will make them better end users?

Give me a break. 99% of flamers flame because it gives them a sense of superiourity over noobs.

What I don't understand about the whole issue is that it takes just as long to post a flame saying "Use the search button you pos degenerate noob" as it does to either pass the post and not comment, or actually tell the person what they are looking for. I'm not talking about spoon feeding people, I'm against that myself, but treating others with respect has long been forgotten in our little corner of the world.

What I think it comes down to is Linux users have this vision of themselves being better than others just because they can use/install/compile/update/ customize their own kernal. It's not just on this message board, it's on any board that has anything to do with Linux usually. People think it's cool to blurt out "RTFM" or "use the search button"

If you have to flame people to make yourself feel good, it's time to get some help for that.

[BlueAdept]

I agree with you Gfay. I am in the IT/Network/Helpdesk field. From 9-6pm it is my job to take the "I moved all my important documents into the recycle bin and emptied it. How do I get them back?" questions.

No one gets paid here. If someone offers a solution to a problem (that probably has been asked 100 times or more), good for them. If they get flamed to hell for not searching...too bad. Live and learn from it so it doenst happen again.

There is one way to get all the flaming to stop....just get rid of the boards. No message boards, no flames. It would also mean that people wouldnt have to use the search button and that would also mean that they would have to think of solutions themselves.

[fgay trader]

Wendel99,

Respect should go both ways. If somebody drops by and makes a "Where do I download SEQ" post, do they not disrespect other visitors by cluttering the boards (and the search engine) with repetitive posts? Not only that, but they completely ignore the instructions on the main page pointing them to FAQ, which is a slap in the face of all project members who put their time and effort into compiling it.

People who come to these boards should observe the etiquette of SEQ community. If they cannot or will not follow a few simple rules, why should the community have any respect for them?

As far as answering those posts with a meaningful reply, see my post above. "RTFM" or "Use search" is a meaningful reply, as it tell them the information is available but they need to put a little effort in getting to it.

[baelang]

i kind of like the new "flame away" forum. it's fun. maybe it will make the regular forums less flamey. we can always just ignore posts where the answer can be found with a simple search.

[Wendel99]

Gfay Trader:

I agree that people should read the FAQ and use the search button.

But I also think that people jump all over people way to quickly to tell them "RTFM" or "use search next time dumbass".

We happen to be lucky that we have been around computers and networks and Linux for a very long time(my first computer ever was a Vic 20!). Does that mean I'm better than someone that just started using computers? I don't think so. Does that give me the right to flame and degrade them when they ask a stupid question or a question that can easily be answered by search? No.

I think it's okay to tell people to read the FAQ or the manual, or even use the search, but the tone in which many people say it reminds me an awful lot of Nick Burns!

It doesn't matter though. There is always going to be people that live to flame.

[who_me_use_seq]

We are not asking that they be 20 years older. We are requiring that they be 20 points higher on the IQ scale. It doesn't take experience on a PDP to figure out how to read a freaking FAQ.