Any Devs out There? ....echo ....echo ... ..and ten there was silence

[hai_hai]

Well here we are, getting to the end of march and SEQ has been broken (ugh sorry B0rked, according to the irc topic) since theend of Febuary.

Okie now for some info I have gathered.

1) Ratt (according to his posts) is reworking something. Granted he cannot give a timeline. Fair Nuff. However it does not fix the real issue which is getting this program back online and working.

2) Fee has stated on the IRC recently that he no longer plays EQ nor will be working on SHOWEQ. Unless he was mind funking me, that was his statement twice. I welcome his response however if I made a mistake.

3) Mvern sits on the IRC silent, when asked a direct question he does not reply (maybe he dont like me, shrug). However he has been the SEQ savior lately with the netcode changes that SOE has been conducting. What has happened to him? The last thing I have heard is he is sniffing out the TEST server and figuring out what SOE is doing, yet says he has the fix for the current changes in hand. That was 3 weeks ago he said this! WHY NOT RELEASE THE FUCKING current FIX you have and KEEP SNIFFING TEST ....for later patches??? HUH? DUH?

4) Casey just bites my head off on these boards, but does make good points however "IF YOU WANT SEQ working, FIX IT YOURSELF!!!". My response is "I AM NOT A CODER, SORRY! I am an END USER of a OPEN SOURCE PRODUCT"!!!! I DONT INTEND TO CODE!

Who am I missing here (in terms of people who actually make this shit work when its broke and such).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


So here is my best guess on whats going on ..........


1) For the most part the people who have led this project have lost interest. Its either a dead issue for them or something they might re-visit at a later time.

2) There is a fix out there, and its being shared with the Elite social club, but not with the regular end users. Why? To chill SOE out on the netcode changes (which they will not stop now that they see this board and get hard on's watching people like me sweat)

3) There is serious issues with the changes by SOE, and peeps are at a loss.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Random Info -

Since the last patch that B0rked SEQ, but was mentioned on TEST SERVER as a direct attack at EQ Macros, while THIS project has left its end users in the dark. What cracks me up is MQ is back and running like a champ, the only difference is a person has to know how to break out a compiler now. /shrug

irc.trifocus.net = #SHOWEQ channel is full of people who talk about Unix/Linux crap all day, or play with a bot who does math for you or spits out weather conditions. You are welcome to idle there but as soon a question about SEQ is asked, be prepared to be kick banned, or taunted by the current lamers who reside there, that dont give a fuck about showeq. In fact maybe they should rename the channel to :

#BOREDPEOPLEWHOTALKUNRELATEDTOPICALLDAY.

Basically expect a bunch of geeks swinging thier @ access around as if they are KING DICK.

These msg boards. They have no info, or posts from anyone working on the project. Heck for the last week the most popular thread has been related to the war in Iraq. WEEEEE!!! CNN keeps a person more informed, trust me. However if you want to debate I have heard there are newsgroups on USENET you can check out.

So What is Really Going ON?

KEEP HOPE ALIVE? or Is SEQ Ido con el viento ?


Props to the past dev work done on SEQ and the programmers who busted ass on it. All I am asking at this point is to hear from someone working on it, and not some Fanboy making a reply.


Hai_Hai

PS -

Jeeves your so cool!! It's nice to see ya have a working version working that only you and the faggots who suck you off can use. Now get away from the bragging and go play, you have nothing to contribute to these fourms, besides trying to prove to everyone your the uBeR D00d with the tool, that none can use,
so PISS off.

[LordCrush]

hai_hai

leave and don't come back !

[hai_hai]

CRUSH,

You are a great helper on this msg board, but you are not a SEQ fixer, so you win the first spot on this thread for FANBOY #1



/clap clap

[Gnutter]

hai_hai.

I'm not a dev, nor will I ever be. I don't have the talent for it. I do program commercially in c# but its nothing like what goes on in SEQ.

I haven't asked when SEQ will be fixed because quite frankly, its none of my god damned business. I haven't paid for any support contract, nor has anyone else.

One thing I will say to you is that I do get paid to write programs, and I wouldnt put up with the crap that gets thrown at the devs from anyone.

I have enormous respect for anyone with the ability to reverse engineer the EQ datastream, and would hope that you understand that people have jobs or school, and a life too.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by hai_hai
CRUSH,

You are a great helper on this msg board, but you are not a SEQ fixer, so you win the first spot on this thread for FANBOY #1



/clap clap

Go back to your mom's teat you loser. :o

[S_B_R]

Someone Please ban hai_hai. He provides absolutely nothing of use to anyone, in any way, shape, or form. He continues to spew insults and hateful, bigoted comments.

[Ratt]

1) Ratt (according to his posts) is reworking something. Granted he cannot give a timeline. Fair Nuff. However it does not fix the real issue which is getting this program back online and working.

2) Fee has stated on the IRC recently that he no longer plays EQ nor will be working on SHOWEQ. Unless he was mind funking me, that was his statement twice. I welcome his response however if I made a mistake.

3) Mvern sits on the IRC silent, when asked a direct question he does not reply (maybe he dont like me, shrug). However he has been the SEQ savior lately with the netcode changes that SOE has been conducting. What has happened to him? The last thing I have heard is he is sniffing out the TEST server and figuring out what SOE is doing, yet says he has the fix for the current changes in hand. That was 3 weeks ago he said this! WHY NOT RELEASE THE FUCKING current FIX you have and KEEP SNIFFING TEST ....for later patches??? HUH? DUH?

4) Casey just bites my head off on these boards, but does make good points however "IF YOU WANT SEQ working, FIX IT YOURSELF!!!". My response is "I AM NOT A CODER, SORRY! I am an END USER of a OPEN SOURCE PRODUCT"!!!! I DONT INTEND TO CODE!

Who am I missing here (in terms of people who actually make this shit work when its broke and such).

-=-=-=-

1) For the most part the people who have led this project have lost interest. Its either a dead issue for them or something they might re-visit at a later time.

2) There is a fix out there, and its being shared with the Elite social club, but not with the regular end users. Why? To chill SOE out on the netcode changes (which they will not stop now that they see this board and get hard on's watching people like me sweat)

3) There is serious issues with the changes by SOE, and peeps are at a loss.


1) I'm not reworking something to speak of... I'm trying to learn Windows programming and the MFC bullshit. It's a long, hard road for me, and takes time, seeing as I have a daytime job.

2) My SEQ is not working, hasn't been working, as far as I know, there is no "secret, elite" fix out there for "those in the know." My SEQ is just as broken as everyone elses. I have not heard from mvern in regards to this in any way, shape or form, so as to his status, I have no idea.

My eventual goal is to either a) couple a stripped down MacroQuest into SEQ for most of the original SEQ features taken directly from memory, or b) write a memory sniffer from scratch in windows that'll send the data to SEQ. At this point, I could probably do it, but I haven't gotten around to it. I think I know enough about Windows crap now to handle it, however the net code/winsock junk will still flummox me, so that's an avenue I'll have to explore at some point.

It's true, Fee has quit playing EQ, and thus his obvious interest in SEQ is no longer there. I'm still playing, just not as much as I use to. But I do plan on seeing a "final solution" SEQ before I quit... and leave SOE with something they can't ever break. No timeframe involved for that, though, and NO DAMNED GUARENTEES.

Summer time's comin' 'round too, which means motorcycle weather. Yee haw!

PS -

Casey - my bike goes faster than your plane. Nya nya nya.

[monster69]

Ratt,

Have you looked at LEQM yet? I am paring it down to barebones to just collect the data out of memory, but haven't gotten to the part of sending it across the wire.

The guy developing it says he is working on the transport stuff himself so you could run LEQM on a seperate box. I will probably wait till he releases that so I can just steal his code and send it to SEQ instead. SEQ is such a better front end than LEQM and it will take a while for it to become feature rich. Besides, why reinvent the wheel?

The part that will be hardest for me is figuring out how to have SEQ handle the data stream. But then, I am not a programmer in any real sense of the word anyway.

Ah well, it will be a fun challenge.

Monster

[hai_hai]

Appreciate the reply Ratt.


/salute

Hai_Hai

[Ratt]

No, I haven't looked at LEQM yet...

As for handling the data on the SEQ side, that's easy. Again, why reinvent the wheel. Just take the data over the wire, then send it to the current processing routines as opcodes. There will be a little translation function, but that will keep the processing routines as a single unit, at that point, you can either sniff or take a feed from the EQ memory with the same routines.

It will take a performance hit, but it should be negligable.

I'm probably over simplifying it, as I really haven't looked into all what it would take. But from what I recall when I worked with the opcode handling tree, it should be fairly easy to do.


Worst case scenario is having to split the opcode hanlding routine into two parts. One being the opcode demogrifyer and the other the dispatcher. Essentially, with a memory sniffer, all we need is a dispatcher anyway.

[eqmule]

--->hmm I probably should keep my mouth shut<---(cut & paste for flame quote here), but I can tell you all that winseq is on its way back... It will be 2 applications... one is a server that reads all the info from memory and its done in c. The client is done in vb. The client will be released as source the server will most likely not. The communication between the 2 are by the UDP. You can run both server and client on the same machine, but offcourse run server on your eqbox(s) and then put a client on another machine, just specify the ip and port in the inifile...
Everything is working right now, just some touchups needed so the client will get a more userfriendly look and feel... stay tuned. And if verant reads this... you brought this on yourself, so dont blame anyone else. Thanks.

[S_B_R]

I'm not sure many people would use a Closed source server that is actively sending data out. I wouldn't anyway, atleast not from a basically unknown source.

What am I saying...... most people that use SEQ have never actually looked at the source. So what do they care if the source is open or closed.. ;)

Good Luck, and keep use posted I guess...

[megatron]

format your linux machines guys, bill gates is back and he is mad!

[S_B_R]

Heh, If the client is OpenSource it should be easy to change SEQ to listen for the same data as this VB Client.

Therefore, we can hold MS at bay a little longer. :D

[high_jeeves]

So, you want people to install an app, which sniffs EQ memory (you know, they place where plaintext username and password are found)? And that app (by nature) has to be on a machine which is exposed to the outside world AND is actively sending UDP data over a variety of ports (albiet, to a limited IP range)... Oh, and to boot, you'll make it closed source, and written in VB (script kiddie language of choice)...

Please, please.. where do i sign up... I think i'm gonna release my own version of this... i could use some new equipment.. could somebody with a well equiped rogue please use my "server"? I need rogue gear for my new twink...

--Jeeves

[S_B_R]

My thoughts exactly ;)

[eqmule]

well dont know if you noticed but there are lots of programs sold that you cant get the source to... and people still use them, im sure you yourself are running one or two...
and I guess I dont really feel like giving verant access to the source so im still thinking about the best way to release this... fact remains... people who can code can decompile it easily enough and see what its doing, and then people who cant will have to thrust the words of them... anyway the "server" as I call it, is only like 200 lines of c++ its just a 25kb exefile run in a doswindow... and about it sending data all over... well I guess if someone is on same subnet as me they can sniff my traffic, but the only one on my lan is me... and traffic cant go outside... its not like you have to broadcast on 255.255.255.255 ...

bottomline. I will make this available. The ones who use it will have a working "showeq for windows" and the ones that dont use it, well... thats fine also because Im sure the devs here almost got showeq working again, and if you sit tight you to will eventually have a working showeq as well...

[casey]

Originally posted by Ratt
Casey - my bike goes faster than your plane. Nya nya nya.

thats a nice bike then :)

i cruise ~ 105 - 122 kts in the 172


/me waits for time warner to get around to installing his cable modem service in his new apt :/

tomorrow.............

[Amadeus]

--->hmm I probably should keep my mouth shut<---(cut & paste . The client is done in vb. The client will be released as source the server will most likely not. The communication between the 2 are by the UDP. You can run both server and client on the same

Oh please god let me see the VB source before it gets too complex for me to easily port to C++!!! Nothing sends me over the edge faster than a VB application ...hehe.


Seriously though for those that are paranoid about the server being binary only, I'm SURE that at least 10-20 hackers will run it through MASSIVE amounts of decompilation and tests (before using it themselves) and will gleefully report if it's doing anything "bad". Hell, we all trusted the devs of ShowEQ when we used their libEQ.a....eqmule could just let one of them look through it and approve an md5 /shrug

[Ratt]

thats a nice bike then

i cruise ~ 105 - 122 kts in the 172


I've topped by bike out at about 170 mph so far... but it still had quite a bit of throttle left.

My guess is I could hit close to 170 knots with the throttle wide open on a nice flat piece of land :)

The fence posts whipping by me gets me a bit jittery past 150 or so.

[sauron]

EQmule,

For the last month, I've decided that this method of sniffing the spawns on the EQ box is the only way to go. I have run LEQM which does indeed work great at doing this, but currently the map is lacking in functionality (like no zooming, and must be run on EQ box).

I think the SEQ devs should shift gears to use this type of sniffer which would send spawn info to SEQ. But then again, why have the hassle of needing to load into Linux on the 2nd PC... Like you said, Sony did this to themselves with their encryption keys. I wish you luck on this project, and I'm very anxious to see your work!

P.S. -- I'd encourage you to release both the server and the client code. IMO there isn't really anything secret about the server code (just download LEQM if anyone wants to know how to read the spawns from memory). Sony knows what to do to try to hinder this type of sniffer. But all in all, I think this method will be easier to fix when eqgame.exe is updated.

Sauron

[Gnutter]

Is it just me, or is anyone else worried that increasing the footprint on the windows box (especially with a closed source binary) is just asking for SOE to detect the sniffer.

Personally I got into SEQ late. Very late. So late in fact that I only installed it 3 weeks ago, so have never seen it working (don't laugh).

I'm sure it will be fixed, but im nervous about exposing myself more with a complex sniffer, so I may end up never using SEQ (Hey, I've never used SEQ so theres no withdrawal to face).


Nervously paranoid.
Gnutter

[Dedpoet]

Is it just me, or is anyone else worried that increasing the footprint on the windows box (especially with a closed source binary) is just asking for SOE to detect the sniffer.

Exactly. The beauty of of the first generation of sniffers was that they were very small and very easy to customize and change the footprint on. Personally, I used Maggotboy's sniffer and was fairly confident in it being hidden by customization and by keeping up with the ongoing thread on stealth methods.

With a closed source sniffer, everyone is running the same sniffer with the same memory footprint. This makes me uneasy. I might run a larger, more complex sniffer/transport application, but not a closed source one.

[xirtam]

My response is "I AM NOT A CODER, SORRY! I am an END USER of a OPEN SOURCE PRODUCT"!!!! I DONT INTEND TO CODE!"

Well... then don't whine when nothing happens. If you want code to happen, then start contributing to this open source product.

I'm on the bandwagon now. It'll take me awhile to refamiliarize myself with where seq's gone (long-time lurker), but count me in. I'll help any way I can... if only to minimize the "why doesn't *my* seq work?" posts. "Oh please, devs... please? I'm not going to pay you, not going to help you develop, just going to sit here and whine, providing a constant source of negative reinforcement to spur you to action..."

STFU newb... go kill emperor crush without the help of SEQ.

We've got a good thing going here. Don't whine.

[junk]

ShowEQ is dead, hai hai. I guess there's no reason for you to come back here now. You'll.... be missed.

[LordCrush]

STFU newb... go kill emperor crush without the help of SEQ.

eeek ... is this possible ? :D

[eqmule]

Sauron: I think you sold me on the idea of releasing the source for both the memory reader and the VB client, you are right and thats what I will do.

And to all the people emailing me and PM ing me on this and other boards, yes I will release soon and here is what it does:

I have a console based exe that reads the memory.
It is writen in C++ using VS6.0 using much the same structures and code as LEQM and I guess we took different approaches. My code just reads the spawninfo and pipes it to an ip and port by UDP as a normal string in this format:

SpawnID:Name:Lastname:HPMax:HPCurrent:Xloc:Yloc:He ading:Race:Class:Type:

and I can add on anything to that string like mana , bank, inventory and some other useless stuff as far as a map with skittles goes...

anyway as you see its a supersmall string so there is no reason to zlib either...

By using VB ,dragging a winsock control onto a form you can pick up every string sent if in this section:
Private Sub Winsock1_DataArrival _
(ByVal bytesTotal As Long)
Dim strData As String
Winsock1.GetData strData
'-->insert your code here to split that string into variables and start filling
'a list and .circle ing out some spawns on your mapform<---
End Sub

I think that approach is appealing for 3 reasons.
1. I can have the map on another machine if Id like (well selecting 127.0.0.1 allows it to be on the same machine as well, just to clarify).

2. Since I am better at figuring out structures and coding the memory reading, I did the Map and all the visual crap in VB, hoping that by splitting it and releasing in that form, more people who dont understand C++ at least can start creating their own custom interfaces since that is SO much easier in VB for the great mass, and thoose who are skilled in VB can most likely make great looking interfaces and mapsystems better than my sample... (which will never have zoom for example, well I shouldnt say never but its not something I prioritize right now)

3. my "spawnreader" is only a few k and the main loop is like 10 lines that saves the spawns in an array and then rescans and saves differences as well as pipe the changes to the vbclient... this means I can update superfast on patchday, without having to look through k after k of useless graphical shit...

especially the vb code could get messy and to big if I sat down and tried doing everything myself as well, but by giving everyone a small "data-piper" almost everyone can go into VB and start dragging and dropping controls and cutting and pasting sample code from the MSDN... thats how I started, and I got the hang of it pretty fast...

and since this is the showeq forum, I guess someone could set up their Showeqbox to recieve and use the piped string as well, thus having a nice interface for free... but I dont know if it would be possible with ease...

my motto, keep the code as few lines and as easy to read as possible...

[baelang]

Originally posted by eqmule
...I dont really feel like giving verant access to the source so im still thinking about the best way to release this... fact remains... people who can code can decompile it easily enough and see what its doing...

well, verant (SOE) can decompile just as easily as anyone else so you may as well release the source.

The other advantage of releasing the source is that other people can improve upon it and send you patches...greatly reducing the ammount of work YOU have to do to maintain the code.

[Amadeus]

and since this is the showeq forum, I guess someone could set up their Showeqbox to recieve and use the piped string as well, thus having a nice interface for free... but I dont know if it would be possible with ease...


I KINDA had something like this set up with MQ. I will look into it once you have your source released. I like the console server concept though (especially that it's in C++) and I think I can see what you're doing.

Cool!

[Borscht]

We've got a good thing going here. Don't whine.
Well actually, currently you've got nothing going here. Except a really lively political thread in a different forum lol!

Now it's gonna be done in Microsoft. Well golly, who would have thought?

The point to learn here is that, in the long run, it's best to learn and employ the prevailing OS. All the energy expended trying to "hold Microsoft at bay" was as useless as it was wasted.

Linux is interesting, in a Betamax sorta way. It's like homemade aircraft...kinda cool...but I wouldn't fly one.

[Yueh]

:rolleyes:

[sauron]

Haha! Borcsht!

Although that's really, really funny, it's so true... That's 4 gig of space I can use for something more constructive.... like a porn movie.

/waves to Linux

Sauron

[Fantastik]

Originally posted by Borscht

Well actually, currently you've got nothing going here. Except a really lively political thread in a different forum lol!

Now it's gonna be done in Microsoft. Well golly, who would have thought?

The point to learn here is that, in the long run, it's best to learn and employ the prevailing OS. All the energy expended trying to "hold Microsoft at bay" was as useless as it was wasted.

Linux is interesting, in a Betamax sorta way. It's like homemade aircraft...kinda cool...but I wouldn't fly one.


Heh? Thats gotta be the most idiotic thing I've heard today.

I manage an arm of a company that has 20+ desktop boxes and 10 servers. All running linux. Desktop is kde. Why do we use linux?

Servers: Er. Secure. Did I mention they are secure? Oh yea, btw, they are SECURE. Our competitiors had thier whole operation go down for a week with the M$ Sql debacle. We are SECURE. Also, we dont ahve to reboot our servers every day. Our cpu liscenses arent extreme when we elect to use comercial software. In most places we use OpenSource, and we contribute cash to the companies to code it (mySQL for instance.). Oh yea, the servers are SECURE.

Desktops: We dont type lots of papers/memos and stuff to be printed out. We dont do lots of spreadsheets or power point presentions. What little we do we do in OpenOffice. WE DO however use a handbuilt point of sale, inventory control, you name it dohicky thats running out of said servers (apache/embedded perl) and displayed/interfaced using a browser. We elect to use mozilla here. Use linux on teh desktops lets us manage all the users home directories on a bserver via nfs. We can control what they are working on. We can guarantee that the mail going in and out is secure and virus free. Oh yea, plus the desktops are SECURE. Asnap to upgrade (gentoo). I can upgrade all 20 + desktops with one command. No screwing around. All comes off the net. No running around like a madman updating each individually, or using coaster.

Most buisness is done via Browser/Email program. Kde is a nice desktopp. Kmail is secure and uses pgp. Mozilla is a GREAT browser. Ease of use, secure, you name it. Whats not to like?

I'm not the only way to think like this. ALOT of CFO's are starting to understand. M$ is really starting to hurt thier pocketbooks with the insane liscenses and upgrades. Plus the whole scurity mess is starting to hit the pocketbook. Alot of my competitors are, unfortunately, switching to Linux. Wish they would stay with M$ :P

Linux is really a work OS. If you wanna play or have pretty graphics, go use M$. Linux is rock stable and gets the job done. It doesnt quit. Ever.

[casey]

Originally posted by Ratt


I've topped by bike out at about 170 mph so far... but it still had quite a bit of throttle left.

My guess is I could hit close to 170 knots with the throttle wide open on a nice flat piece of land :)

The fence posts whipping by me gets me a bit jittery past 150 or so.

looks like i need a faster plane :) with a nice tailwind at 10k, ive managed to get our groundspeed up to 150 kts in cruise, and somewhat faster in a descent.

/me goes out to get multi time in a nice twin to have the satisfaction of going 180 kts :)

nice bike btw, and you are crazy :)

[old_fart]

Originally posted by casey


looks like i need a faster plane :) with a nice tailwind at 10k, ive managed to get our groundspeed up to 150 kts in cruise, and somewhat faster in a descent.

/me goes out to get multi time in a nice twin to have the satisfaction of going 180 kts :)

nice bike btw, and you are crazy :)

Ya he is... I can see it now.. 2 am soutbound MoPac ... DPS officer is awaken by the alarm on his radar.. he sits up with a start, looks at the radar LED display, shakes his head and resets the display and goes back to sleep..

[Borscht]

Heh? Thats gotta be the most idiotic thing I've heard today.
You haven't read any of the anti-war posts in the General forum then!

Hey, use Linux. I don't care. But someday, you'll be reformatting and installing a mainstream NOS. Just a prediction.

And when that happens, your job is probably forfeit. As you've likely wasted all your time becoming an expert on a fringe operating system.

[Lyroschen]

Wow, blind-fighting. <g> I'm not sure what's out there, but I bet I can hit it if I close my eyes....


I'm an MS person (meaning I use their software). And much in the way Borscht speaks, it's because of their dominance in the home PC market.

But, to dismiss the benefits other OS's have to offer out of hat like that, is short-sighted to say the least B.




EDIT: Oh, and I agree Ratt is a crazy mo-fo

[tamasine]

Originally posted by Borscht

Hey, use Linux. I don't care. But someday, you'll be reformatting and installing a mainstream NOS. Just a prediction.

And when that happens, your job is probably forfeit. As you've likely wasted all your time becoming an expert on a fringe operating system.

i do wonder what's mainstream. solaris? novell? AIX? *shrug*
and since the network code in windows is so .. similar to unix (i'm sure they've actually written some by now but still), i can admin an NT machine fine once i find behind which of the maze of twisty option-boxes they've hidden the setting i'm looking for.

and like it or not, there are several places where your prediction can't come true for money. i work for a charity. so oddly, when we need a new fileserver, i don't buy something capable of running win2kserver plus licenses. i re-use one of the semi-obsolete PIIs and put samba on it.

[Fantastik]

Originally posted by Borscht

You haven't read any of the anti-war posts in the General forum then!

Hey, use Linux. I don't care. But someday, you'll be reformatting and installing a mainstream NOS. Just a prediction.

And when that happens, your job is probably forfeit. As you've likely wasted all your time becoming an expert on a fringe operating system.

Er you do realize that 90% of the mail that travels the internet goes through a unix machine. over 60% of the html. These numbers are increasing, not decreasing.

And M$ is not a NOS. Its an OS. Even M$ doesnt try and represent it as a NOS. They would be laughed at by IBM, Sun, Csico, and the millions of conusmers who use NOS's.

Having pretty graphics doesnt make a NOS. Have a realtime kernel with a secure stack and a privledge system makes a NOS. M$ lacks all 3.

You above post outlines your ignorance. I'll ignore you from now on.

[who_me_use_seq]

Don't be too hard on him. He sounds like someone who just finished getting his MCSE. MS has never been a technology company. They are a marketing company. And you don't get to be as big and successful as they are as a marketing company if you aren't pretty damn good at it.

My own understanding of the TCP/IP stack was screwed up for months because my first formal training in the protocol was a MS class for my MCSE.

It is only after being out in the RW for a while and getting away from the spin doctors at MS that you begin to see how screwed up their OSs actually are.

[Fantastik]

Heh yea. The little I saw onf the NT TCP stack scared the bejesus out of me. Trying to set up routes of any type past a basic NAT looks like a nightmare.

I don't understand why M$ mangles it that bad. Its actually HARDER to code that mangled mess. Stevens and Comer wrote a 3 volume set YEARS ago that is the TCP bible. Everyone in the industry has a copy on thier desk and uses it when there is a TCP question. Doesnt matter if its sockets or STREAMS, everyone uses the Stevens/Comer books. How hard would it have been for M$ to use them? :P

[Fantastik]

Also just read that articly on slashdot/register where M$ is refusing to fix known gaping security holes in NT:


shmigget writes "The Register is reporting that Microsoft is throwing in the towel as far as NT 4 is concerned on the latest security flaw to affect Windows 2000, XP, and NT 4. They quote Microsoft as saying 'The architectural limitations of Windows NT 4.0 do not support the changes that would be required to remove this vulnerability.'" There still is a workaround for NT 4.0. Instead of patching the problem, it's advised to firewall off port 135 on an affected machine.

Baby Jesus. M$ is literally saying "go buy a linux/unix firewall to protect our crap-ass OS" It amazes me people use the OS for anything besides games.

[showeqnewb]

um... how old is NT 4.0? That isnt there way of saying buy linux its their way of saying upgrade you tard!

[Fantastik]

tard. heh.. huh heh beavis.. heheh

Seriously. Guess what. Win2k/xp is based off the nt4 kernel. Its pretty much nt4 with windowdressing.

Oh yea, and i wanna pay $500 bux to have my nt box thats acting as a web and mail server upgraded to 2k/xp so I can get "pretty graphics". Er. no. I want the nt4 box to keep dishing out mail and html as a SERVER (its a server os, remember?) like its been doing.

It's not a coincidence Win 2003 server just went gold this week.

You pay the 5 grand site liscense to upgrade your servers for enhanced graphics. I'll keep using my linux and solaris boxes to dish out 5 to 100x the throughput for a fraction of the price.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by Fantastik
You pay the 5 grand site liscense to upgrade your servers for enhanced graphics. I'll keep using my linux and solaris boxes to dish out 5 to 100x the throughput for a fraction of the price. [/B]

:D

I'm reporting you to the Man

[NDT]

Heh...I never did understand why people bitch and bicker about which is better Windows or Linux/Unix...or which is used for what more...
It's simple...
I like Linux...I use Linux...but I also use Windows...
There are somethings I can do better in Linux some I can do better in windows...
Why we waste space debating things like windows vs. Linux I will never figure out...heh who really gives a shit who uses what?
I could give a shit if my neighbor used OS2 LOL
Could something like SEQ run on windows just as well as linux? Come on we know it could...Do I think windows would be a good idea for this kind of app? NO!! because it makes it too simple for other people to use. Let's face it half the "Uber" <--I say Goober people in EQ are...well...as far as computer knowledge goes, most I met even seem in real life "loosers" They are lucky the heart is an involuntary muscle because if they had to think to make it beat they would be screwed. So do I want those twits using SEQ? No....
I love the file system on Linux...security in Linux file system is soo much better then windows...
Other then that I really don't care which I use.
If I wrote programs in Java or C I might rather use Linux as my design platform of choice...
But since I mainly write in (the script kiddie language as Jeeves put it) of VB I spend more time in windows. But then again...VB is a money maker for me. So why would I switch to java? Sorry but applications like clients I have need...you can just produce in a fraction of the time. And VB applications run better in Windows then Java apps...no one could convince me I am wrong on that one. Are VB apps way bloated and larger then a Java or C++ app? Yeah...with the speed of current computers and the amount of space we have to utilize does it make a shit? NOPE....Do my apps really need much security? Nope... Do I write in any other languages?
Well...Basic, Perl, and VB are what I am fluent in...But of course I don't use Basic anymore heh...That started back in the commodore vic20/64 days hehe then progressed to Qbasic and ended around 93 for me... Do I know C++? I used to do a good bit in C++ about 4 years ago...do I remember much now? Not really...Do I have time to learn more languages? Nope...Do I make money from VB apps? Yep....

But the bickering over which is better which isn't in both languages and operating systems basically boils down to what you need them to do. And if they can do what you need them to do well. And as far as OSs go...I really don't think one could exist without the other anymore.

[BonZolI]

I do unix admin and get a fair amount more then I used to get as a novell/ms admin. Most of my friends are Turbo Tech Geeks, the trueth of the matter is:

Every OS has a place, no single one has all places.

Once the Penguin starts paying my salary most of those SUN/Cisco/Novell/AIX/MS books on my shelf will be Penguin books. We should all have 0 OSbias.