To everyone complaining about the flaming...

[Ratt]

Ok... I'm willing to consider "moderating" this forum a bit more, but I'd like to hear some guidelines on exactly what ya'll are wanting.

Typically, as you've all seen, the same question gets asked time and time again... and a little searching will reveal the answer. However, as an experiment, I will be willing to make this forum, or create a new forum that is "Flame free."

Where you can ask any question you want without fear of being flamed, and anyone who flames in that forum will have thier post moved and smacked around a bit. If'n ya'll are thinkin' somethin' like that will fly, then fine, I'll be more than happy to do it, however, it seems it's going to quickly get mired down in a bunch of junk posts. But I'd like to be proved wrong on that.

So do ya'll want this forum to be like that, or do you want a new forum?

[Amadeus]

I think a forum like that would be a good idea. I think you could avoid some of the headache by making it a "development" forum, where only development related questions would be asked, leaving the "help" forum for the newbie installation, etc.. questions.

Just put a disclaimer up that says something like "Do not post questions here until you have used SEQ for at least a few weeks or unless you are a seasonsed programmer asking development questions." :)

[Lyroschen]

I like the idea of a "trash" free forum. Hopefully, without all the junk posts, the devs will actually be willing to give more information.

I agree the Dev forum would be the best of the existing forums for this idea. I would like to see flame-bait posts moved to R^6, general questions/discussion moved to help or general as appropriate, and un-productive posts simply removed.

[Kimbler]

Yes, Yes, Yes please. Since it is going to take some effort on your part Ratt do whatever is easiest for you. Prolly a "NO FLAME Help Desk Forum" . That way those that get there thrill jumpin on the folks can still use the regular help desk to misbehave.

[Alfred]

I think it is a good idea.

:)

[gremlinz]

If you need any help with the time consuming tasks of moderating it, which will turn in to a project of epic pporportions greater then keeping seq running, I volunteer.

[wfj5444]

I have a question about compling QT...

Kidding..

Honestly its a good idea IMO. But I agree that it should be limited to How-to kind of questions and with an expectation of less precise or quick help. In otherwords, first line tech support rather than the current help forum that should be like 3rd level.

But if moderating ismore work for you or don't have the people to do it in your stead then I would say don't do it.

[Mr. Suspicious]

Disallowing a community to set their standards themselves and setting up their policies and other "cultural" environmental variables, is a sure way of destroying it Ratt.Even if the way a community chooses to police itself is by flaming. Be honnest here tho. I haven't seen a flame, a REAL flame here for over 2 years. Only people that complain about flames are those that cannot stand the fact that others point them to obvious spots for help, spots they know they could've thought off themselves, and due to that get worked up and see everything as a flame...

"Hello!"

Disallowing any form of communication that _could_ be regarded a flame (yet isn't) is the best way to scare away and get rid of the most valued members of the community IMO. "Hey! Have you considered reading the FAQ?" could be regarded as a flame, also as a very well meant pointer in the right direction, aimed at helping the individual by being just helpfull enough to get him on the way and "help the man how to catch fish".

Pointing people to the spot they can find the answer to what they look for (the FAQ, documentation and yes, the almighty "SEARCH" ~a lot of people have been helped simply by being pointed out that there is such a thing as a search feature on this board~) often results in flame by "anti-use-search" kiddies, the person that asked the question in the first place and wants to be spoon fed everything instead of following advice given, and those that advocate a highly moderated forum. The latter often don't actually know what they ask for, because in most cases their posts and replies will be moderated away....

Do as you wish, but please, before jumping the bandwagon, use your noggin and consider the consequences with thought.

Once again, I'd like to point people like Kimbler (in regard to "the hand" sig) to the pre-face section of: http://www.smoothwall.org/download/pdf/docs/0.9.9/doc.faq.pdf

[Alfred]

Mr. suspicious - You are an Asshole!!


reset your counter....

[fester]

If the choice is between changing this forum or making a new one, I vote for making a new one. Name it something like "New User Development Forum"?

I understand that the proposal will create a new forum to be a place where people can ask ignorant questions. So other users who may find themselves asking the same question can find the same question asked by someone. Is the theory that other new users may answer it.

Whatever the name of the forum, if flaming is discouraged, I would not ever read the forum. It would be my assumption that any forum of this type would have a very high noise rating on a signal to noise ratio. It would likely be a waste of time to 90 percent or better of the readers here. Or did I miss the point?

[Amadeus]

Of course, no forum of any sort will help beginner developers if the developers in the "know" are unwilling to read or respond to it. I don't mean this as a flame, but many quality questions simply go unanswered in the current forums. For example, there is a thread where Casey took the time to really explain through a packet sniffing thing; however, no one has stepped up to explain how the encryption is working so that we can make use of the data we find.

I find that a lot of the questions lately are a 'hacking' nature, and ones that are damn hard to find answers for in a book or a website. However, if anyone here knows of a website that really explains packet sniffing (and how to use it to one's advantage), etc... I think many of us would be very appreciative.

Learning the C++ is easy, learning how the opcodes/memory structures is that part that is somewhat exotic.

[Lyroschen]

My hope is for the "flame-free" forum to be non-newbie issues. N00b questions would get moved out of the forum, as would other inappropriate posts. The ones remaining would be (in theory) applicable to the title. This could be a moderator's hell, though.

If the intent is to create a forum where folks can ask questions they're just too lazy to search on, and no one is expected to tell them to go search, then I'd have to agree it likely won't be worth reading.

If the Dev forum is reserved for development discussion, and posts that don't belong there are moved, then I doubt there would be much reason for flames in that forum. The policing would consist of moving posts that didn't belong. Once moved, posts would be subject to whatever handling was necessary by the population. That would dramatically improve the signal to noise ratio for that forum.

edit: I read the preface Mr. S was mentioning. For those who don't want to read it, it basically outlines a set of expectations before posting questions to the "hacker" community. To paraphrase, "Don't come to our country club wearing a t-shirt."

---
my two coppers

[grimjack]

I don't think a new forum or new rules is needed. As far as the RTFM posts are concerned, however, I think they are almost as redundant the questions people don't search for. In my opinion just ignoring these posts is the best reaction. Posting RTFM is not going to get a lazy person to change his ways and really just keeps a thread active that should probably just drop off the forum. If you think about it every "use the search" type reply just bumps the post. Next thing you know it's going back and forth until someone gets fed up seeing it and answers the post. Also, most lazy people will be less likely to stay around if their posts don't get a single reply and those who are not lazy will eventualy find the answer on their own. Oh and as to pointing people to the search feature or the faq... they will find it on their own with just a little effort.

Thanks

[seqmage]

Originally posted by Ratt


So do ya'll want this forum to be like that, or do you want a new forum?

I would say start a new forum. There are a few questions I have bout various linux things.. like etheral and tcpdump but don't ask because I know the RTFM and SEARCH flames would be flying.

Knowing that I could ask questions with out being flamed would be nice.

As far as the flaming, Its good for someone with only one post, to get flamed.. there is a lesson in shock value, and being called lazy or an idiot. SEQ was never ment for EVERYONE? Those willing to learn and install. Now there are some great guides and its becomming easier to setup/install/ and get SEQ running. But when someone cant read the left hand side of the screen where it says Status of RED.. and they post "Is SEQ working?" they are begging to be flamed. This is a community where we do get to know each other(yes its limited) and flaming is part of that.

My vote is new forum.

[Kimbler]

In reading the post this really seems to boil down to as someone aluded to a "signal to noise" perspective. It seems to be a debate of who has the right to be "signal" and who has a right to be "noise".

The newbs (me included here), Look at it this way:

We ask a question (signal). The flamers swoop in and unload for 10 post to RTFM (noise). Other newbs read the question (signal)and think "I was wondering that too" or "wow I can actually answer that" but have to navagate through countless RTFM/Search (noise). We see the flames post we have to sift through to get information or anwser a question as lots of noise. We also get the clear impression we are not welcome.

The flamers look at it this way:

We(newbs) ask a question (since it has been ask before or is somewhere on the Web) it is considered noise. The flamers read the newb question and add their RTFM/Search post (more signal). They resent having to sift through all the neeb questions to get to the real hard never been ask questions.

So ,

Is noise, questions ask before , from newbs (and usually answered by newbs since it is one of the few times we can contribute)?

Or

Is noise , RTFM/Search screamed over ans over from the flamers?

Another way of looking at is:

If we newbs prevail you end up with a forum full of questions , some repeated but answered just the same and no flames or :

Let the flamer prevail and you end up with a forum with a few questions and LOTs of flames and newbs walking away from the SEQ project because of the hostility.


We newbs do have an advantage or ability the flamers do not, we can read a post and see very quickly if it is a question of interest and decide to read on. We also can see a flame in the first words and ignore it and move on the next post for new information or contribute an answer. The advantage is we can attentuate the noise by ignoring the flamers to some degree.

The flamers for whatever reason do not seem to have this ability...simply ignore the newb question and move on. It appears a newb question is almost like a unresistable drug that forces them to add a post and waste thier time. The very time they repeatly say we (newbs )force them to waste reading repeated questions. :eek:


The real issue for me is not the flamers : I ask my questions and ignore them completly....I have thick skin. The real issue here is and will continue to be....The SEQ project has alot of work ahead and flaming the newbs does run off new much needed talent. Let the flamers rule and you run the risk of SEQ dying from the lack of new folks taking up the cause. Asking the flamers to cool it will likely encourage folks to take the plunge and jump on board since taking those first few steps into will not result in a big flame smack down.

[wfj5444]

My personal favorites are...

"Look here st00pid n00b!! <link> You are so dumb you should have RTFM, used search or something! <link> See how easy it is! *Beep* Beep* dumb *beep* <link>"

With links to answers to the problems or possible answers. I guess I just wonder why bother with the flame if you are gonna go ahead and answer? :D

[iluvseq]

Originally posted by wfj5444
My personal favorites are...

"Look here st00pid n00b!! <link> You are so dumb you should have RTFM, used search or something! <link> See how easy it is! *Beep* Beep* dumb *beep* <link>"

With links to answers to the problems or possible answers. I guess I just wonder why bother with the flame if you are gonna go ahead and answer? :D Hehe. Further proof that most folks view anything that isn't "exactly" per their specifications as a flame.

People in general do not appreciate being corrected. We like to be "right" all the time, and especially on a public forum.

Posting a question already shows a certain lack of knowledge, and is usually about the limit of what most people are willing to express publicly.

When that question is answered in a way that makes the question asker look even LESS intelligent, it tends to piss off the person who asked the question, because now their already fragile ego has been shattered even more.

Too bad.

Learn to leave your ego at the door when you post a question.

From the "answerers" position, they've actually answered TWO questions for you, not one.

When they say "Your answer is found <link> here, which happens to be the FAQ, and you could have saved everyone some time by reading it" They've done two things. One, they've answered your question. Be glad! Two, they've showed you where you can find your OWN answers in the future. Be even MORE glad!

Remember, everyone is much more willing to help those that help themselves. If you cannot be bothered to help yourself enough by searching, reading the manual, or reading the FAQ, then where the hell do you get off asking someone else to do it for you?

My time is valuable. So is everyone elses. However, remember, when you are asking a question, you are asking for some of my time. So you should show some respect, and try your damndest not to waste my time by asking a question that you could have answered for yourself if you had simply searched a bit.

Also, on a related note, if you don't have enough comprehension of the problem you are trying to solve, to be able to search with appropriate keywords to find the answer on your own, then you probably will NOT understand any answers you get anyway.

For those of you crying, "help me learn how to decrypt packets so I can help fix SEQ"...

If you are a person who is truely capable of learning this stuff, then you damn sure are capable of using the web to search for and find the information you need to get started.

There is a "core" set of knowledge required to even BEGIN touching packet decryption, that has nothing to do with the specifics of SEQ.

Learn that core. Then come back here with questions like "I grabbed some raw packets with tcpdump, and tried some brute force methods on them. They seem to be encoded with foobar encryption, but I can't figure out the key length. What have the other developers figured out about this, or am I wrong on the type of encryption used?"

See, that question shows you know a certain amount about what the hell you are talking about, and asks for a specific piece of data.

In another thread I posted a link to Eric S Raymond's "how to ask questions" article. I strongly suggest you use the "search" feature and read that article. You will then understand how to ask questions in this forum, and others like it.

If you want to learn how to code in C++, or how to sniff packets, or how to scan the EQ process memory space, or how to install QT, then you are NOT in the correct forum.

This forum is about SEQ. And although SEQ depends on QT, Linux, sniffing packets, and is written in C++, knowledge of those topics is NOT SEQ specific, and there are MUCH better places to ask questions regarding these "fundimental" skills.

Think of it like asking questions about first-aid on a brain surgery forum.

[showeqnewb]

I dont see any reason for the flames, PERIOD. It is just stupid. So what if the question has been answered 9,185,114,911 times today. If it pisses you off so bad stay away from the "Post Reply" button. It is really not that hard to be nice.

Now I have seen people post questions that were easily answered serveral places, but not everyone knows where to look for that information.

So instead when you come here you put on your flame retardants and ask a simple question hoping someone has the decency to point you in a direction.

You dont have to up your post count flaming noobs coming to the party for the first time. Like I said, either point them nicely in a direction of some help/search button or DONT REPLY.

It's gotten to the point I dont even want to point people in the direction of help in fear of getting flamed for helping someone that didnt follow the install directions and missed a step or forgot to install an rpm.

If your gonna flame then dont click the "Post Reply"

[BlueAdept]

I dont think anything needs to be done about the flaming. There really hasnt been much in a while. The ones that have been flamed have deserved it....and even then it was pretty tame. (see http://seq.sourceforge.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3386 ). Two people nicely state that SEQ is broken and he then posts 2 more times asking why his setup isnt working. He didnt even bother to read the replys and then complains that he got flamed after his third post of asking why it isnt working.

Ratt, you have better things to do with your time than to patrol the boards for someone who says "Use the Search key" and to baby sit the people who dont like the people who say Use the Search key.

I dont consider people telling people to use the search key flamers. Telling them to go F*ck Off and Die because they are worthless pieces of Sh*t because they are too stupid to READ instructions, that is a flame...see there is a difference. I havent seen one of those posts in a long time here.

[Lyroschen]

I always saw the flames as a way to discourage novice folks from coming here at all. Ratt has mentioned many times that he doesn't want anyone to use SEQ. The less popular, the better... or something to that effect. If that stance has changed, then a change in board protocol may be needed.

If that stance has not changed, then the dress code at this country club continues to include flame-retardent undies.

Either way, I'd like to see the dev forum kept as clean as possible, moving inappropriate posts somewhere else.

[Kimbler]

I have an alternate suggestion that will completely eliminate all flame/search/RTFM replys and releve Ratt of the moderating duties:

Set up two new “Help Desk” forums:

One called the “Elite Help Desk” that is to be moderated by BlueAdept, Mr. Suspicious, high-jeeves, S_B_R and the rest of the common Search/RTFM types. All questions must be submitted to them privately to be judged “worthy” to be posted, you know meet their requirements: The question must never have been asked before. The answer to the question must never have been posted on the entire web before. The question must reach a threshold of difficulty that is beyond intuitive…….you can fill in the rest. If it passes their muster then obviously It will be granted the status of “Worthy of Posting” and there will not be any SEARCH/RTFM for obvious reasons.


The second called the “Newbie, Doofus, Redundant ask Question Help Desk” with the disclaimer “Ask any question you want, it may or may not get ignored or answered but you will not be flamed or screamed at to RTFM or SEARCH feature for asking a question”. Sorta look at it as elementary school for SEQ. The BlueAdept, Mr. Suspicious, high-jeeves, S_B_R types can easily avoid the forum since they will know in advance it has a HIGH probability of causing them frustration. We doofusses and great unwashed will struggle to help each other with the possibility of nurturing the next Mvern or Ratt .

Bingo! No more flamers/SEARCH/RTFM posts.

Then again an other way that was so brilliantly alluded to by showeqnewb, since the flamers can’t seem to stop themselves from pressing the “POST REPLY” …we take up a collection to buy them anger management classes.

[BlueAdept]

Get a life Kimbler.

In about 90% of your posts, all you do is complain about people who say Search.

If anything you should have your own forum called the "Whining Newbies"

[high_jeeves]

Read his sig Blue.. if you have something bad to say, you should:



Talk to the HAND!!


/snicker

--Jeeves

[showeqnewb]

I do have to admit that after I posted my previous reply I started reading the other forums and found the post that Blue linked and to be honest I have to agree with Blue.

People were WAAAAY to easy on him... he deserved being flamed although everyone was kind to him :)

[Kimbler]

showeqnewb, Check this one out. It is one of my favorites. Looks like Intruder took the whole RTFM/SEARCH screamers for a great ride.

http://seq.sourceforge.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3327

[high_jeeves]

Uhh.. you want to point out the flame in that thread Kimbler? I think your idea of a flame and the rest of the worlds are very different... There were no flames in that thread at all. If you think those are flames, you really need to grow some thicker skin.. its a big bad world out there when you get out of school, and MOST people in the real world are a whole lot meaner than that thread.

Back on the topic: I dont think a moderated forum would be worth the moderators time. The bottom line is, these forums get less than 1 new and relevant question a month, it seems like a large waste of resources to create a new forum and waste a moderators time on that forum for the one new question.

--Jeeves

[BlueAdept]

Originally posted by Kimbler
showeqnewb, Check this one out. It is one of my favorites. Looks like Intruder took the whole RTFM/SEARCH screamers for a great ride.

http://seq.sourceforge.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3327

You dont even bother reading the posts either do you. No one flamed him. He didnt take anyone for a ride. Not one person told him to RTFM or to SEARCH. I ended up turning it into a joke by posting the status in huge red letters. Big deal.

Also if you read further, an intelligent question was asked later in the thread and people helped him with suggestions.

That is the best example of someone being flamed?

Maybe I should add this to my sig

Those that perpetually bitch and moan about RTFM or use the SEARCH key......Talk to the FINGER!! :D

[Ballosh]

Personally I think that flaming is just another form of bullying - purile and pointless, save only to boost the flamers ego. That we put up with things on the web we wouldn't do IRL is bizzare to me. And yes I am well aware of the irony in my post thanks ;op

If Ratt etc don't want anyone but l33ts to use seq, why bother going to all the effort to make it easier to install with better documentation etc? I aint got no problem with that, not my decision.

Have to agree with Kimbler - what's wrong with making a noob free forum for advanced users and a flame free forum for n00bs?And Blue, when you say Kim should have his own forum made for him to whinge in - erm - isn't that almost exactly what he asked for? Then you could all be hppy methinks. Apart from missing out on flaming the noobs, of course.

Bal

[high_jeeves]

That we put up with things on the web we wouldn't do IRL is bizzare to me.


Actually, this is 100% analagous to things that happen in real life. If I am at work, and I have spent months working on a project, and have included a significant amount of documentation, I expect people to read the documentation BEFORE they come and ask questions. If they dont, they get a very direct RTFM.

Why? Because they are wasting time and money. In this case, they are only wasting time, but it is free time, which is rare and valuable to many people. I dont understand why people get so insulted by the RTFM posts... if the answer is in the manual.. guess what? You should have read it BEFORE you wasted everyones time and bandwidth by posting a question...

Your earlier post is a perfect example of this community, Ballosh. You had a relevant question that was not found in a million other places on the forum. Many people (some of which flame other quetsions) posted useful information in that thread. However, when those same people see "On the first page, it says ShowEQ is NOT working, I know how to turn on a computer, please tell me how to decode packets for ShowEQ" they flame... its part of the community. It happens in all communities, online and offline.

--Jeeves

[Kimbler]

Ballosh,

You are dead on target. Flaming or constantly trying to embarass a person for asking a question is plain and simple bullying. And your reference to why we put up with it on the web when in real life we would not put up with it is very illuminating also.

People who behave as the RTFM/SEARCH types CAN"T get away with it in real life. Bully folks in real life at the level these guys do one of several things happen:

1. They get beatup.
2. They get fired
3. They get ostracised

We have to put up with the bullies on the Web because the forum allows it to happen. Which is really the meat of the question. Does the SEQ forum want to continue to let these types contiune to run folks away from the SEQ project?

With SEQ currently broken we could be exchanging useful information and helping the neewbies come up to speed but instead we have to debate "do we want to let bullies and harassers continue to try and hold the forum captive by demeaning people that don't ask questions the correct way for their own jollies"


It will be interesting to see how it all finally shakes out because it will determine the lifespan SEQ as a whole project. Let them continue to rein and you get little or no new tallent or ideas because the ones first venturing in get run off. Get rid of the bullies and fresh talent and ideas can join the project.

[BlueAdept]

Kinbler, you should look at your posts that you have done.

If you do, you will notice that you asked a few questions and everyone was answered. A lot of them I also chipped in my advice too.

You will also notice that you helped a couple people.

Then after that, you start a crusade on bashing people who happen to have slightly negative context in their messages.

I am a network engineer, but I also do a lot of help desk. The only way that people learn is from doing it themselves. We have some people who call us on a daily basis wanting us to do their job because they are unwilling to learn. We try to walk them through a couple times and if that fails then we report them that they are unfit to do their job. It is the same thing here. 90% of the questions are answered politely and concisely, but the other 10% just want everything given to them without using one single brain cell.

Since you consider telling people to use the search key a flame, you will notice that some of the Devs and other people who have contributed to the project in some way are guilty of telling someone to search and probably every one of them has helped many times more than they have told someone to search.

[Kimbler]

Well I am moving on, The debate has had both sides presented. In Summary:

Those FOR the new forum:

What we would like:

We newbs would like to ask any question we want. We know it can get answered or ignored completely. We don’t want to have to sift through rude countless RTFM/SEARCH posts.

The result:

If we get it the SEQ project get lots of questions many dumb, stupid and beyond the scope of the forum but we create a forum to foster the exchange of information that MAY, MAY trigger a new approach or maybe a break through that extends the life of the SEQ Project.

THOSE to keep thing as is:

We want to be able to post countless RTFM/SEARCH posts. We don't want to sift through countless dumb stupid questions beyond the scope of the forum.

The result:

Since I could not of said it any better I will quote high_jeeves:


”
“The bottom line is, these forums get less than 1 new and relevant question a month”

[wfj5444]

/Agree High Jeeves

If you don't spend your time learning/reading, why should I spend my time answering. My previous point from before was either Flame or Answer. Why bother with both?

If you want an answer then look around and find it. If you do like I know I have in the past and not paid enough attention to what I was reading, post a dumb question, then you deserve what you get.


The more I think about this whole deal the more I come to the opinion:

Ratt, dont bother. Keep it like it is.

[high_jeeves]

I love the general idea that the guy who asks the questions like "how to i install showeq" is somehow going to be the genious developer that saves ShowEQ after a few posts on a message board.

Let me clue in those of you that arent software developers: Reading the manual/searching the web/searching forums is about 1/3rd of ANY decent engineers job. If somebody doesnt have the capacity to find answers on this forum, they are a LONG way away from being a decent engineer.

Here's a tip: If you want to learn about packet sniffing and decryption try the following: RTFC.. thats right.. READ THE FUCKING CODE. Its all in there.. thats how all but one or two of the people on this project learned how it works, and how to contribute to it. If reading the code doesnt mean anything to you, then you are a LONG WAY from being able to do packet decryption/decoding. If you dont have a good understanding of C++, ASM, memory allocation schemes, UDP, encryption, and compression algorithms, you have a LONG WAY to go before you can participate in decrypting the stream. If you think that you are going to learn these things on a message board, you are sadly mistaken. Read the code, if you have specific questions on what a peice of code is doing, or why it is doing it, post it... you might get an answer... The people that cannot seem to install ShowEQ with 5 walkthroughs and an FAQ sitting in front of them are NOT the people saving this project... they are the people killing it.

Flaming is not bullying, it is maintaining a comunity standard.. as I said before.. it happens both online and offline..



People who behave as the RTFM/SEARCH types CAN"T get away with it in real life. Bully folks in real life at the level these guys do one of several things happen:

1. They get beatup.
2. They get fired
3. They get ostracised


Actually, you are 100% wrong here... enter the real world.. get a job... those people that cant find any answers given a multitute of sources for those answers are the ones that get fired... It happens all the time... there are thousands of libriaries and toolkits that are used by engineers every day. A significant number of those engineers NEVER have to ask any questions about those libraries/toolkits. Many of those libraries and toolkits have significantly less documentation and support that ShowEQ. Those engineers that waste all of their time by asking quetsions before they do research are the ones that get fired, or get hit first in the lay-off list.

--Jeeves

[old_fart]

Over on the MQ boards, they don't do a lot of flaming... so what do they do? They answer the same old stupid question over and over and over and over because peeps are stuip and lazy and will not help themselfs. Ok... the flaming here has been a bit much, but unless you want to see the same post every hour for weeks on end asking the same lame questions, find some middle ground.

I say flame on.....

[BlueAdept]

Ok here are the statistics:

Number of posts that say to use the search since Apr 23 there have been only 4 posts in all of the forums telling people to search (I did a search for search). All of the posts telling them to search helped by telling them where/what to search for.

Since Apr 23 there has only been 1 person who told someone to RTFM.

Lets look at it from the other side now:

Number of posts since Apr 23 complaining about people who tell people to do searches (excluding this thread): 1 full thread about it and 3 posts by Kimbler complaining about it.

Number of posts since Apr 23 complaining about people who tell people to RTFM (excluding this thread): 2 and one of them was from Kimbler.


Dont believe me? USE THE DAMN SEARCH! :)

Edit: spelled Kimblers name wrong

[Alfred]

Well I am not 'sucking up', but he is 100% correct! It is what I tried to say in some of my posts before, perhaps not as well said...


There is a level of understanding that takes a lot of learning. All the well wishing and hoping and good intentions doesn't mean shit. If you simply don't have the raw experience.... you have a long ways to go. yes there are people in the world that have such a high iq that they can make a quantum leap and having some information posted in this forum would help kick start them. Even if that is the case, I think the work involved in trying to tailor answers so that people might understand is way to much work.

Like I said before, this isn't a case of i'm better than you... it is a case of I simply know more and it would take to much to try and explain how to get where I am. (I'm not talking about myself here ;)) If you don't already have the magic... I can't give it to you.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by old_fart
Over on the MQ boards, they don't do a lot of flaming... so what do they do? They answer the same old stupid question over and over and over and over because peeps are stuip and lazy and will not help themselfs. Ok... the flaming here has been a bit much, but unless you want to see the same post every hour for weeks on end asking the same lame questions, find some middle ground.

I say flame on.....

The other thing to keep in mind... They have a framework that is in place... that is working with decrypted data. Most of the real 'hard' work has been done by verant.

It still requires work, obviously, but it isn't rocket science compared to working with the stream.

[Thom_Merrilin]

In my view, adding this new forum would be a good thing. Those who want to keep things the same, can simply ignore the new forum... but adding a new and likely high traffic area of communication can only be a good thing.

Sure, there will be a lot of redundant questions... but I'm sure there are still some people that still feel good when they post the answer to someones question, no matter how simple it was.

I mean heck... 3 years ago, I knew absolutely nothing about linux, but thru extensive reading in the forums here(Yeah, been lurking for a long time), I've learned to install linux, download and compile SEQ without problems. I can prolly even answer a few questions too.

In any case, this new forum would be a good idea... The next uber programmer might not have any linux experience, but be a true wizard with code. It's not me... but I'd sure be willing to try and help.


-Thom

[SeqTester]

If there would there be a way to remove that forum from the search. So that those of us that actually use it could still save the time of not going through the same posts over and over that do not even link to the post there are looking for.

[grimjack]

Originally posted by high_jeeves
Actually, this is 100% analagous to things that happen in real life. If I am at work, and I have spent months working on a project, and have included a significant amount of documentation, I expect people to read the documentation BEFORE they come and ask questions. If they dont, they get a very direct RTFM.

Why? Because they are wasting time and money. In this case, they are only wasting time, but it is free time, which is rare and valuable to many people. I dont understand why people get so insulted by the RTFM posts... if the answer is in the manual.. guess what? You should have read it BEFORE you wasted everyones time and bandwidth by posting a question...

--Jeeves

I agree with everything Jeeves says here except for a few things. Why waste time posting a response to stupid questions? Why waste time and people's bandwidth bumping a thread that should probably just fall off the board? A stupid question with no replies wastes far less time and bandwidth. Posting a reply at all just gives the person a reason to respond. If someone won't take the time to search, posting "use search" or "RTFM" is not going to change that. That same person will do the same thing next time he encounters a problem. It's just going to cause that thread to take up more space and more time. I'd rather read a stupid thread one time than see it on my list of updated threads over and over. I really don't think "RTFM" or "use search" is a flame at all. I just think it should go without saying and those that can't figure it out don't deserve any acknowledgement.

Oh and it's my opinion that a person ignored will give up faster than one who gets ANY type of response.

Thanks

[fester]

Top reasons why people post RTFM and Use the Search replies:

1) To educate the people reading and thinking "you know that is a good question."
2) To make the one who asked the question go away and never return.
3) To make something of the time we lost while reading a question that should not have been asked.

Top reasons why people post these "bad" questions:

1) They know the answer or don't really want to know the answer, but ask the question to be a bully and a pest. (This is the same reason some post nudes in forums devoted to people that collect barbie dolls?)

2) They have read the "how do I install Linux" FAQ and say, gee that sounds hard. There must be a simpler way. I shall ask for the simple way, because it must exist. (They presume that no one has asked for the simple way before now?)

3) They think they are special and the rules do not apply to them. Others should do all their work for them and this includes logging into their linux system to compile, configure, and debug their ShowEQ setup. (Now High Jeeves, log into my Linux machine and FIX the problem now, you are my slave.)

4) If they really are that ignorant. (Maybe they are a housewife and they know nothing about computers? They should have directed this question to someone they know in real life instead of posting it to the world and wasting the time of a larger set of people. By the way, ignorant != dumb. At least not all the time.)

Top reasons people may defend the people posting "bad" questions and bash the people posting "RTFM" or "use the search" answers:

1) They wanted to ask the same question but they were afraid of being RTFM'd.

2) They don't understand why these questions are "bad".

3) They don't answer questions and don't understand that if these questions were more common, the people answering the really good questions would leave the forum. (Because the ratio of good to bad questions would lower to the point that there is no point in looking for a "good" question.)

Top reasons why people ANSWER questions:

1) They feel good about helping others. The question is new or has merit. (There may be others with the same questions on their minds.)

2) They feel in the mood to communicate. This can take the form of passing on knowledge one has to another.

This is not an all inclusive list, but I feel it likely covers the majority of reasons for each action.

[high_jeeves]

Oh and it's my opinion that a person ignored will give up faster than one who gets ANY type of response.


Unfortunately, in my experience, this just isnt true. The people who post the stupid questions are the same ones that bump there own questions (over and over again in some cases) because they think it just got missed, or ignored. Take a look at the EQ technical forums... ALOT of the posts consist of nothing other than "Bump". Posting a RTFM/STFW/FAQ post lets the user know "we are here, we read your question, now stop being a lazy ass." I see this behavior on a number of forums I read, many of which are moderated. People rarely post a question, then just go away if no follow ups are made...

--Jeeves

[Mr. Suspicious]

Originally posted by Alfred
If you don't already have the magic... I can't give it to you.



Originally posted by Alfred

Mr. suspicious - You are an Asshole!!


reset your counter....


100% BS in both cases... Even if you don't have any knowledge at all, you _can_ find everything you need on the boards already... let me emphatize that: every single little piece of info you would ever need to know about ShowEQ already exists on these forums. It's simple to get it: Use the search and read the available documentation and the source.

Some time ago I posted a response to someone asking how to install QT, I said he should have a look into the INSTALL.newbies file found in the ShowEQ directory. This "gentleman" responded with a non flame response, that would be considered a "flame" by the anti-RTFM right wingers, and basically said: "Don't give useless answers".

From the INSTALL.newbies file:



1.3 Downloading qt-3.0.5
Download qt-3.0.5 at ftp.trolltech.com and extract it to it's own
directory (and rename the directory).

Code:

[]# cd /usr/lib/
[]# wget --passive ftp ftp://ftp.trolltech.com/qt/source/qt-x11-free-3.0.5.tar.gz
[]# tar zxvf qt-x11-free-3.0.5.tar.gz
[]# mv qt-x11-free-3.0.5 qt-3.0.5



1.4 Editting linux-g++-shared
edit the file "mkspecs/linux-g++/qmake.conf and change all
references to "gcc" to "gcc3" as well as "g++" to "g++3"
(lines 12, 27, 47, and 48). save your changes (ctrl-o, ctrl-x)

Code:

[]# pico -w /usr/lib/qt-3.0.5/mkspecs/linux-g++/qmake.conf



1.5 NOTE TO USERS WITH A HIGHER VERSION OF gcc

This document assumes you have gcc3 and g++3 executable on your system
(as included in Red Hat 7.2). Depending on the distro (in other words:
anything other then Red Hat 7.2), which RPMs you used and the phase of
the moon, you may only have gcc<specified-version-number> or
g++<specified-version-number> executables.

Change everywhere in this document where it says gcc3 to gcc<version>
and g++3 to g++<version>

To see the version numbers for your installed compiler, please follow
the next steps:

- Open a console and type "gcc" then press the <TAB> key once or twice.
This will attempt to "auto complete" what you are typing. Pressing it
twice should list all the options you have.

Result:

[]# gcc
gcc gcc-3.1
[]#

Do NOT use plain gcc, you need at least gcc3 or a higher version. In this
example you'd use "gcc-3.1" and "g++-3.1" instead of the mentioned "gcc3"
and "g++3"

If you do not see any other versions of gcc then plain "gcc"on your
system, then you did not install all specified packages as mentioned
in step 1.2



1.6 Compiling QT
"export QTDIR" and the "MOC" environmental and configure and compile
qt-3.0.5 with the -thread option. Optionally you can use "gmake -j2"
to possibly speed up compile. If you have 2 cpus then you can even
use use "gmake -j3"

** this compile will take a LONG time, possibly as few as 1 hour and as
many as 6 depending on cpu speed. **

Code:

[]# cd /usr/lib/qt-3.0.5
[]# export QTDIR=/usr/lib/qt-3.0.5
[]# export PATH=$QTDIR/bin:$PATH
[]# export MANPATH=$QTDIR/man:$MANPATH
[]# export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$QTDIR/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH
[]# ./configure -thread
[]# gmake
[]# gmake install


You might find that adding the line "/usr/lib/qt-3.0.5/lib" to the file
"/etc/ld.so.conf" then running "ldconfig" will help you.

Code:

[]# echo "/usr/lib/qt-3.0.5/lib" >> /etc/ld.so.conf
[]# ldconfig


/Sarcasm

You see, my "RTFM" wasn't realy helpfull in any way. He wouldn't be able to setup QT in any way if he followed my advice. I wasted bandwith and his precious time by not feeding the info step-by-step into him.

/Sarcasm

Face it, answering questions by pointing people into the right direction usually isn't gratefull. Quentioneers will badmouth you, call you an asshole and to top it off... won't be helped in any way, even tho that they, if followed the advice: RTFM they WOULD have been helped.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by Mr. Suspicious
100% BS in both cases... Even if you don't have any knowledge at all, you _can_ find everything you need on the boards already... let me emphatize that: every single little piece of info you would ever need to know about ShowEQ already exists on these forums. It's simple to get it: Use the search and read the available documentation and the source.
......



Dude!

I think you are misreading what I was poking fun at....

One... we aren't talking about simply installing the app. Most of that discussion has been about learning how to decode the data stream. Get it?

Two... that comment of mine about 'you are an asshole' was a poor attempt at humor. You made a comment about how you haven't seen a real flame in a long time. I gave you a real flame and told you to reset your counter / timer. ;)

[uncleubb]

1. RTFM posts are not a big deal. *shrug* If you get a response like this to a post, it is because you are asking a basic question that is clearly answered somewhere that is easily accessible.

2. All the time spent on these boards complaining about flamers would have been much more constructively used by reading/learning rather than whining.

3. Ah'm going to cap this: PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD ARE IN GENERAL VERY HELPFUL IN ASSISTING THOSE WITH VALID QUESTIONS AND REQUESTS FOR HELP.

Most people can't amass specialized knowledge by having it spoon fed to them. Trial and error, reading and research, study and application (read: WORK) are the ways to gain specialized knowledge. It requires specialized knowledge to analyze data packets in a manner useful to SEQ and to program (most) software.

Yet again, people with that specialized knowledge here on the boards seem willing to assist those who show that they are working to gain such knowledge. However, I'm all for any strategy that helps the SEQ project. So if this "flame is a no-no forum" is deemed by the developers as a Good Thing (tm), please do it.

Debating the ethical question about whether it is right or wrong to flame might be fun, I just don't see it as substantially important to the success or failure of the SEQ project.

[gremlinz]

Ok chiming in here a bit, I am kinda new to programming and these RTFM posts are not that bad, I asked about 6 monthes ago for a few questiong and got the RTFM when they were really simple questions, since then I have asked on board a what to read post and got a response that was very helpful to everyone and have to agree with most of the people, that unless you do the ground work to learn the basics you are not going to make any large strides in determinig structure with out know a lot of stuff including packect decode, memory structures and to explain everything that goes on there would take a post so large that it would take more time then any was has free to write. Look at the list of helpfull places to read and start there if you want to help, I would link but not sure where it was, lol you can search for it though. Damn it is stickied start reading this and looking at the code to try and start figuring out the code, if you ask questions about the code, i am sure people will be helpfull as long as you took the time to at least try and figure it out, but most of the time the stuff your asking would take more time to explain then it would for you to do a search here or c++ programming sites. here is the links and list of books provided

http://seq.sourceforge.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3095


so keep chugging at it and soon you will figure it out, begging everyone on how to read the code and do the job is not contributing it is slowing down the devs from working on the project.

Nooch

[Lyroschen]

I honestly believe that most of the folks who object to RTFM and Search responses do so because they get lost when trying to RTFM or Search. There is a level of awareness that seperates the self-educators and those not-so-inclined. They tend to be unable to seperate junk from quality in their searches, and find their mind swimming in technical jargon when reading documentation. They are generally asking for someone to bridge that gap...

"What's something good to read?", for example, is asking for an expert to point them at a specific document which will provide quality information. If left to their own devices, they are likely to find tons of documentation without being able to decipher which is usefull and which is not. It is a growth experience in my opinion to develop the ability to discern this for yourself, but it does increase the learning curve significantly.

"How can I help?" posts are targetted at the possibility that there are aspects one can do in-game that don't require too much technical capability that could aid in the development of the tool. This will allow those who are not coders, or don't understand packet structure, to participate and get more involved. At the same time, it will give them a correspondance with folks who are closer to the heartbeat of the project, and a better sense of what's happening. With regard to decoding the data stream, such assistance isn't likely to be needed. In the development of maps, zone info, and the like, who knows. It won't really matter, though, 'til the decoding gets to be more consistant.

I haven't agreed with much of what Kimbler has said, thus far. However, if you want to try to bridge the awareness gap between the noobs who don't know how to benefit from reading a manual or using the search, and bring them up to speed on how to get quality information themselves, more power to ya. I'd like to see you pull in some resources for these folks, perhaps maintain a list of links to quality information. There are some threads already in these forums with some such info. Pooling it into a single location might be a good first step to your efforts of bridging the gap, and would give the RTFMers a quality source to link for the noobs asking questions answered there. In fact, you might get some great input from these same folks you badmouth by showing such initiative.

It's not my world, I just live here.

[grimjack]

Originally posted by Lyroschen
I honestly believe that most of the folks who object to RTFM and Search responses do so because they get lost when trying to RTFM or Search.

Maybe I'm not like most, but my objections have nothing to do with that. I just get sick of seeing a question that has been answered a million times turn into a 2 page thread.

If it was like this:

Someone asks a question that is really easy to find.
Someone replys RTFM or Use search.
Original poster gets pissy.
Everyone else ignores the post from here on out.

I would have no problems with it. In reality it often it turns into:

Someone asks ...
RTFM or Use search reply.
Original poster gets pissy.
Someone else chimes in.
RTFM poster chimes in.
Supporters of RTFM poster chime in.
Opposers of RTFM poster chime in.
Original poster gets more pissy.
ect ect.

I guess I shouldn't mind it either way and have more willpower to not read every post update in these situations but I can't help it hehe.

All in all though, I'm mostly playing devils advocate. I agree that people should RTFM and Use the freaking tools that are available. SEQ is very well documented ( I would say almost if not truely too easy. )

[Lyroschen]

Seems to me you don't object to the RTFM response, but instead object to those who object to it. \\=^ )

[fryfrog]

i think a no-mean-response forum may be a good idea. i doubt anyone who currently answers repeat questions would bother helping anyone there, but i'm sure they would read it. i think if you make sure that fact is known, you will not even have to police it very strongly because i would say that ALL of the RTFM or SEARCH people respect the SEQ dev team and would do their bidding when it comes to this "special people's" forum.

perhaps the people who dislike the ones that say "search" or "rtfm" could be the ones that help others out in these forums. i would suggest grabbing a copy of all the docs/faqs and just cut/paste from there when you need to answer something. i would not bother with linking, as pasting the info right there would help the person more.