To all Beta Testers - Beta 1.19.2 is over.

[Seaxouri]

Guys and Gals,

So far we have about 15 folks testing the beta. Not one of you has sent me a single ground item entry. Not one.

My request was simple. I do 99% of the work to add back in ground items and locate the offsets. You do 1% and let me know about non-labeled ground items. I think that was more than fair.

Now don't tell me that you have not seen a ground item with an 'ACTORDEF' label, because you are fos. When you see one, just write down the ID number in front of the ACTORDEF text, walk over to the item and look at it, then fill in a description of what you are looking at. Is it a leaf? An acorn? A forge? A candycane? What?

It would take you an extra 2 minutes out of your busy EQ day to help me out, yet not one of you has done so.

I hate to be a dick, but if this continues, I will no longer post ground item offsets, so your beta clients will look the same as the 1.19.1 release. Sorry.

[purple]

Threatening people is a really shitty way to get something. If you hate to be a dick, don't be a dick.

Why not just release what you have and make it show the actor def numbers and make sure people know they can post that "Hey, 0x00fa is a Lollipop" if they want. If they don't want to, then they don't want to and the client shows numbers, but at least shows groundspawns.

That's all seq does. We just show you the number unless someone bothers to tell me what it looks like. I don't know how many people use seq, but uRit is the only one who ever tells me actor def numbers. I don't spend my time cursing everyone else for not being like uRit. Hell, I don't even praise uRit for being uRit. I just put the numbers he gives me into the next release I do and put his name in the ChangeLog.

Alternately, you could also try to pull actor def numbers from either showeq or macroquest. It's not like actordef numbers are unique to MySeq. Seq's numbers are in weapon*.h files with the * being the first two hex numbers and position in the array being the last 2.

[Seaxouri]

Purple that's fucked up.

When I posted the beta deal, I made it clear what I was asking for. When I make a promise to someone else, I keep it. If I break the promise, then I fucked up.

Now your saying that its okay for the beta testers to break the deal just because they 'want to' and I'm the dick for asking for help.

Fuck this shit. I don't need it. I get fucked enough in real life.

[Seaxouri]

Actually, nevermind.

Don't post anything anymore. I will no longer require any feedback on the beta.

Thanks.

[purple]

Seriously, it's great what you're doing keeping MySEQ running. But get off your high horse. Maybe your users are just grateful to have anything and are willing to put up with your idiosyncrasy. Maybe people around respect that you put in time to keep this alive, something they could never do, and so they never call you on anything you do. But whatever.

I don't think anything I said originally is "fucked up". You're taking a crappy attitude to your users and then I offered some ways in which you could try to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish without guilt trips.

Instead, it seems you're taking your ball and going home because a) your 15 beta users didn't provide prompt feedback to you and b) some random person (me), who doesn't even use MySEQ, is saying you're being a baby. Well no shit 100% of your users didn't provide feedback. They just want a better version of MySEQ. If presented with the option to get the version without groundspawns and the version with groundspawns, they choose the version with groundspawns.

I wish one of the beta testers would post up the beta version for public availability since it is GPL, and you are distributing it, and it is within their rights to redistribute it.

Feel free to ban me and delete my post if you don't agree with what I'm saying. That'd be totally hilarious!

[kublaii_khaii]

Unfortunately, I found out about this site AFTER beta was closed. Had I know it was here, I'd have willingly provided feedback about missing groundspawn info - and I'm still more than willing to do so. Just because some won't or aren't willing - doesn't mean we're all that way.

I've made the offer - it still stands. Provide me with a working beta - and I'll provide you with the ground spawn info you're looking for, because that's what I'd use it for primarily anyhow - ground spawn info.

The short of it - ball's in your court now - and no I'm not busting anyone's balls. I'm just making a statement.

[Seaxouri]

I wish one of the beta testers would post up the beta version for public availability since it is GPL, and you are distributing it, and it is within their rights to redistribute it.

Feel free to ban me and delete my post if you don't agree with what I'm saying. That'd be totally hilarious!I'm not going to ban you. I just think your being a total shithead. I find it amusing that you are trying to lump me in with those other shitheads at rexxpage. You get the double bird for that one purple.

I put in a lot of work to keep this alive and I ask for a little help froma select few. I don't get it so I ask again, and you start being a total dick about it.

Your the one on the high horse. If you don't use the tool, what do you care anyhow?

I don't feel like I am asking too much from folks. I have never asked for anything before, just a little volunteer help here on the beta from a select few.

I don't care about posting my beta to the public. I know the GPL deal. Part of that deal is that I don't have to stick around and get shit on from ungrateful people like you. It also means I don't have to do any more releases if I don't want to. I'm free to do what I want, just like everyone else is. You can't piss on a teammate and expect him to still want to play with you.

Your comments were way out of line. Your attitude is total shit. I used to think you were cool, but now I see you are just another self-righteous arrogant ass.

The funny thing is that, it was never a big deal. I *do* show the groundspawns with the non-translated name if there is no match. I just wanted to add more to the list before release so I don't have multiple releases. I wanted the next release to have as much as it could. Its been in beta 2 months now without a peep from anyone. I figure everyone thinks everyone else is doing something, so they don't bother with jotting down ground spawns. So I let folks know that nothing is coming in. I really don't care if I get no feedback... I will sleep at night... but the next release will look that much crappier with a bunch of ACTORDEF labels on groundspawns. I don't *really* care though.. if it ships like that, it ships like that.

Its okay for me to call myself a dick. It is not okay for you to call me a dick. You have an opinion? Fine, keep it professional. I'm not threatening people. A threat is if I say I'm going to come over to your house and rip your skull in half. However, if I feel the extra work it takes me to find the grounditem offsets for those few beta users who get to enjoy it, are not being used to help further the project for the masses, then why should I bother? Why should I take my extra time to make the tool work better for 15 people who have not bothered to provide me any feedback for 2 months? Its the old, You scratch my back, I scratch yours thing. If you dont scratch my back, then is it a threat for me to say Im not scratching yours? Bullshit. And where in there did go cursing anyone?

I was totally fine until your post. Your post totally fired me up and pissed me off. Maybe that gets you off, I dunno.

[msdn70-290]

I missed out, the links got deleted before I could grab them.

If you rehost let me know. I can email or post stuff np. Hell I'll even go look in zones I know have groundspawns. I remember the actordef from the original version =)

[purple]

I hate to be a dick, but if this continues, I will no longer post ground item offsets, so your beta clients will look the same as the 1.19.1 release. Sorry.




Its okay for me to call myself a dick. It is not okay for you to call me a dick. You have an opinion? Fine, keep it professional. I'm not threatening people.


That's a threat. You're saying "Hey, you people that I've let benefit my hard work, you better pay some back or else." Taking away the abilitiy to see groundspawns because of some people who won't post and say that 403 is a leaf or that 400 is a lava rock is ridiculous.



I'm not going to ban you. I just think your being a total shithead. I find it amusing that you are trying to lump me in with those other shitheads at rexxpage. You get the double bird for that one purple.


I'd be lying if I said that wasn't the first thing I thought of when you released a closed beta of a GPLed project. But when I said you should ban me and delete the thread, it was totally tongue in cheek and personally, I thought it was hilariously funny!



I don't care about posting my beta to the public. I know the GPL deal. Part of that deal is that I don't have to stick around and get shit on from ungrateful people like you. It also means I don't have to do any more releases if I don't want to. I'm free to do what I want, just like everyone else is. You can't piss on a teammate and expect him to still want to play with you.


You do realize that the GPL deals with absolutely none of that, right? You do not have to post your release to the public, but by distributing it once under the GPL it gives the person you do distribute it to the right to redistribute it. That is the one important aspsect of the GPL and to me it is what makes your closed beta pretty comical. It's not wrong. It's just funny.

Amazingly, the GPL doesn't force you to stay with projects. It doesn't force you to be rational and make good decisions. You can be as much of a douche as you want and it is not against the GPL, thank god. You have every right to stop public work on MySeq. It's definitely worth stopping doing something you enjoy because 15 people wouldn't say that 401 is a red mushroom and I said that you're being a hypocrite if you act like a dick and then say that you hate being a dick. As crazy as that sounds, you have every right to walk away for that exact reason or any other reason.



However, if I feel the extra work it takes me to find the grounditem offsets for those few beta users who get to enjoy it, are not being used to help further the project for the masses, then why should I bother? Why should I take my extra time to make the tool work better for 15 people who have not bothered to provide me any feedback for 2 months? Its the old, You scratch my back, I scratch yours thing. If you dont scratch my back, then is it a threat for me to say Im not scratching yours? Bullshit. And where in there did go cursing anyone?


You're knocking down your straw man really well there. Nice job.

How long does it take to find ground spawn offsets? How often do you have to do it? Now compare that amount of time (I bet it's under 30 minutes a month, if that) to how uppity you're getting. Now consider a lot of the code necessary for ground spawns was posted by someone else! 99%/1% indeed.

Look, you posted a self righteous, threatening post to your beta users because they weren't living up to the standard you want them to. You ended your post where you came off as a total dick by saying that you hate being a dick. I just said that if you really did hate being a dick, then you should maybe not do it. I was being snide because you were being a hypocrite.

Then I gave you several recommendations of where you can get your precious actor def numbers. You blew off my suggestions and stomped away. I laughed about your storming out in a huff because the whole situation is absurd. You come back and chastise me for calling you a dick and call me a dick. I laugh some more, tell you infinite times more actor def numbers in one post than your beta users did, yet I don't expect anything in return.

Well that's wrong. I expect you to come back and act huffy some more in reply to this.

[Seaxouri]

I think you got things a bit backwards. What makes the beta 'closed'? It was open to anyone in the public who asked. The source code was already checked into CVS even before the announcement went out. I never told anyone they could not redistribute it. So where in there, in the sense of open source, did I close anything? I chose to limit the number of beta users that *I* distribute the binary to, but that is totally my option and within my rights, so long as I provide the source too, which I did. As I have stated already, I did not want to post a beta on SF, only because I felt it to be a waste of resources. If I put a beta out there and 500 people download it, only to find out there was a nasty bug (which there IS in the beta by the way), then I would have to put another, then another, then another, etc. Then I have 7 different versions out in the wild, and who knows who has what if someone reports a problem.

I've been coding since 1979. I've been involved with public software and alphas, betas and releases since 1995. I've seen a lot of things done right and a lot more done wrong. Limiting public betas, in my professional opinon, is the right thing to do. This, in no way, makes it 'closed'. And ending the beta does not make it closed in the open-source sense, and you know it. When you say 'closed' and 'GPL' in the same sentence, you are attempting to invoke thoughts of privately kept source. Something I have never done.

It takes me longer to find ground offsets than anything else. Primarily because I have not added in a ground offset scanner to the server like I have for the other offsets. As for the contribution from the individual who helped me with the grounditems, the code that was supplied was only a small portion of what was needed, and even so was a cut/paste of my code from another part of the server, but with 'item' replaced for 'spawn'. Don't get me wrong, the key things I was looking for were 1) how can I scan for grounditems and 2) start me off with an example so I can get used to it. Both of these he did, and for that I am grateful. As for the coding part, which took me about 15 hours, I used little to none of what was posted.

You are totally changing things to make your argument sound plausible. I didn't have to do a public beta. In most cases it causes more harm than good. Part of the reason I thought it was a good idea was to have others help me collect the information. This was implicitly agreed to. So therefore they are not living up to the standards I want them to, that is true, but you leave out the fact that they are not living up to the standards they agreed to. I had, infact, started trying to do this all myself. Then I realized how much of a time sink it was traveling everywhere for the sole purpose of collecting this information. It dawned on me I could ask others for help in collecting this. I knew not everyone would, but I was hoping one or two of them would help out like I expected.

I don't even know why I try and explain it. You argue like my 5 year old. You know I am right and you understand my point of view, it just collides with what you think should be done, so therefore you need to belittle me. And you will just continue to argue your mundane points, twist my words around and salt your argument with sparkled bullshit.

My original post was totally benign with the exception of the last part. The last part was not a threat, because I am not taking away something they currently have. I just am not going to *give* anymore in the future. That is not a threat. People are not going to die because I no longer look for ground offsets. Hell they won't even be maimed. I'd be surprised if anyone even got the sniffles. Once when I was sick, a friend made me dinner. Does that mean everytime I am sick I should expect that friend to make me dinner? If they don't, is that a threat? Gimme a break. *That* is fucked up. If someone else wants to find the GI offsets and post them, cool. I am not going to stop them. But I don't have to do it myself, and if I don't do it, I should not be called a dick by you or anyone else.

Your reply was totally harsh. You drew a sword, so I drew mine.

FWIW, everything I have ever done for MySEQ is checked into SF CVS (and usually is within a few days of it being written). Everything. So I can't really take my ball and go home, nor did I ever say I would (or even could). The playground already owns it.

[purple]

You really don't need to keep citing your credentials. This is a meritocracy. The way you get credibility here (at least in my eyes) is by doing something, be it coding, sitting on IRC and talking, packaging, or helping by answering people's question even though you haven't played EQ since 2001. It's ironic that you're trying to out cred me when I'm the only other person actively participating that has as much credibility as you do.

Your users don't care how old you are or whether your kid is smart as I am or that you poked punch cards for your pdp11 or loaded basic off audio cassettes on your TI994a.

Your users do care that you keep MySeq working against current EQ Live and make it grow to the best it can be by adding features like viewing ground spawns.

This is why threatening to not work on ground spawn offsets as punishment for people not giving you information to help you out is bogus. You have put in the work to do something. You've released the work to do something. But because a couple people didn't give you feedback like you would like, you're not going to utilize the features you put the time in for. Isn't that obviously childish?

What's the most important part about ground spawns to users? As a user of showeq, I can tell you I care about where they are significantly more than which icon the client should use to represent them. Most ground items look like lava rocks or mushrooms or bags no matter what they actually are. Being able to run up and find out what it is is more important in my opinion than how you'd describe the icon.

So who cares if it says "Unknown #400" instead of Lava Rock? If I really wanted to know what it was, I'd have to pick it up anyways because most of the groundspawns look like lava rocks...

Wasting resources is a copout. They aren't your resources. They are sourceforge's and MySeq and ShowEQ are such a tiny blip in the world of sourceforge that I can't imagine anything you could do would cause a problem for them. You could put out a new release a day for the next year and sourceforge wouldn't blink an eye at you.

My original post was totally helpful, except for the first sentence which pointed out the ridiculousness of the veiled threat in the last sentence of your post.

[Seaxouri]

I'm not trying to out cred you. I'm saying that I think I've been in the game long enough to say that my approach towards limiting a beta is a good one. It has nothing to do with comparing me to you. I don't even know what your credentials are. I'm sure they are wonderful, but that is irrelavant to my point.

Maybe wasting someone elses resources is a copout to you. It is not to me, and I meant it sincerely. It is the same reason I do not put src in the release, that I strip my binaries, and that I pack my files with the highest compression ratios. You are probably right that it is a drop in the bucket for SF, but it helps me sleep at night to know I am doing what I can not to take advantage of the good nature of others by abusing it, no matter how small.

Grounditems are already in the 1.20 build. I am not taking them out, nor did I ever say I was. My users will get grounditems ugly or not. 1.20 is not released because it is not done yet. It has nothing to do with ground items. I already told myself that if I run out of steam on 1.20, I will just release 1.19.2 and give up on 1.20 (src is in CVS anyhow). I didn't want to release both 1.19.2 and then 1.20 a month or two later. However I may do that. I am still on the fence.

[kublaii_khaii]

Not sure if you want this posted here or elsewhere...

But it appears that ground spawns on the client map get labelled as the graphic image that would show when the item is on the ground (yes - I know it's a little thing, but developers wanted input).

Example - misty thicket acorns get labelled as yew leaves; fruit gets labelled as bags - and that's how it's reflected on the map.

Other than that, I haven't seen any issues with the client/server (at least at this point) dropping ground spawn info. I'll post more info as I encounter issues.

[Carpathian]

Most ground spawns in the world will show up with the pretty names, such as "Acorn." However, this is because of the GroundSpawns.ini file in the configuration folder. If a groundspawn appears for a model number which doesn't have an alias, it will just show the model number instead. He's looking to find the numbers which haven't been aliased, and a name for them.

[kublaii_khaii]

Ground items in Fungus Grove - IT10611_ACTORDEF=Shapely Vegetation

[kublaii_khaii]

Ground item in PoK - IT10645_ACTORDEF=Book - The Age of Scale

[kublaii_khaii]

You're more than likely well aware of this issue.. but figured since I'm providing some info about unlabelled ground spawns, I'd get some clarification for the sake of maintaining continuity..

The utility shows ground spawns based upon the graphic they have while they're on the ground. Because of this - multiple objects with different names will show up with the same labels (IE - yew leaves and several others show up as broad leaf; skinning rocks, velium pieces and drake scales show up as globes of slush water).

With that in mind - how then do we want to do the labelling for the config files to take this into account?

[MacQ]

I can understand Seaxouri's frustration because I think there is a certain percentage of folks who jump at the chance to sign up to be beta testers but won't always make the type of commitment expected by the developer. So it can cause frustration and sometimes bad feelings.

In any event, I didn't sign up for the original 1.20 Client beta because I did not want to over commit, however, if I can still participate in that beta, I promise to invest a few full days this week to look for unlabeled grown spawn items.