EXP Chart

[SeqTester]

Does anyone know where there is an Accurate EXP chart?

I have been using the one from hackersquest.com and always looked good until 55 it shows I need 30,000,000EXP and I really need 55,000,000.

Was something changed here?

Also did anyone hear about the rumor to remove Hell lvls? I hear its going to be retroactive so if your higher lvl yo ushould get lots of EXP on tuesday IF IT'S TRUE.
/em crosses his fingers

[fryfrog]

that removing hell levels sounds like total bs to me... but anyway :)

[high_jeeves]

We can always hope.. but even if they do, they are just going to remove the XP difference from everyone so they dont level up more.. otherwise anyone over 30 would gain 1 lvl, 35 would gain almost 2, 40 would be about 2.5 lvls.. etc.. would be insane.

--Jeeves

[Cryonic]

Exp gained from mob:
Level * level * ZEM * Class <- Blue or higher, lightblue are .5 or .25 times this

Exp needed to level

(Level^3 - (Level -1)^3)*Race*Class*LMOD*1000

so to find the exp needed to clear any level is:

((Current_Level^3)*LMOD - ((Current_Level - 1)^3)*(Current_Level - 1 LMOD))*Race*Class*1000

Class is now in both equations for all classes but Rogues and Warriors because VI took out the class penalties by multiplying the exp gained by your class penalty. Warriors and Rogues still benefit from having a Class mod of .9 (vs. the Equivalent of 1 for all other classes).

LMOD is as follows:

Level < 30: 1
Level < 35: 1.1
Level < 40: 1.2
Level < 45: 1.3
Level < 51: 1.4
Level < 52: 1.5
Level < 53: 1.6
Level < 54: 1.7
Level < 55: 1.9
Level < 56: 2.0
Level < 57: 2.1
Level < 58: 2.2
Level < 59: 2.4
Level < 60: 2.5

Class is as follows:

Bard: 1.4
Cleric: 1
Druid: 1
Enchanter: 1.1
Magician: 1.1
Monk: 1.2
Necromancer: 1.1
Paladin: 1.4
Ranger: 1.4
Rogue: .905
Shadowknight: 1.4
Shaman: 1
Warrior: .9
Wizard: 1.1

Race is as follows:
Barbarian: 1.05
Dark Elf: 1
Dwarf: 1
Erudite: 1
Gnome: 1
Half-elf: 1
Halfling: .95
High elf: 1
Human: 1
Iksar: 1.2
Ogre: 1.15
Troll: 1.2
Wood elf: 1

So plug in the numbers and figure them out for yourself. Just to have it said again: before anyone goes arguing about them removing class penalties from the equations, they DIDN'T. What they do now is, with the exception of the Rogue and Warrior, multiply the exp you get from the kill by your Class modifier. This in essence removes it from the game without taking exp away from characters or having them suddenly level overnight.

[skellt]

3 questions.

1) Do light blue mobs also follow the level*level*zem*class formula? Or do they use a different formula?

2) Your LMODs indicate that 59 is not a hell level. It is a linear progression from 55 on according to your charts. Is there a typo or are 300,000 EQ players wrong about 59th?

3) If I read your formulas right, then the xp a dwarf paladin needs to get thru 55th is this:

((55*55*55*2) - (54*54*54*1.9)) * 1.4 * 1 = 46,995.76

1 level 45 mob is worth 45*45*1.4*1 in a zone with no zem. This is 2,835xp. So the paladin needs to kill only 16.58 low dark blues to level. This seems untrue in practice. Did I misuse the formula or misread your post? Or is that true?

Skellt

[SeqTester]

Thanks

Light blue mobs(Correct me if I am wrong) when they 1st turn light blue 1/2EXP then next ones down 1/4 and I think anything lower than that doesnt give EXP. If it does its not enough to give 1/330

[Azerael]

Originally posted by skellt
3) If I read your formulas right, then the xp a dwarf paladin needs to get thru 55th is this:

((55*55*55*2) - (54*54*54*1.9)) * 1.4 * 1 = 46,995.76

1 level 45 mob is worth 45*45*1.4*1 in a zone with no zem. This is 2,835xp. So the paladin needs to kill only 16.58 low dark blues to level. This seems untrue in practice. Did I misuse the formula or misread your post? Or is that true?



I have to agree that something doesn't ring true in theese equations... there is no way a 55 wood elven druid can be:
((55^3)*1.9 - (54^3)*1.7)*1*1 = 48,423.7

If it were, one raptor out in OOT would be enough to level on I'd think!

I believe there must be something missing from Cryonic's post or that I don't understand its correct application... If its the latter, I'd love a bit more detail so I can understand it, or if its the former I'd like to know whats missing so I can plug in the right numbers!

[Cryonic]

sorry, fixed the equations up a little.

[Zaphod]

Unless I'm really missing something, I believe the LMOD, Class, and Race figures are off by a decimal point, so the tables would be as follows:

LMOD is as follows:

Level < 30: 10
Level < 35: 11
Level < 40: 12
Level < 45: 13
Level < 51: 14
Level < 52: 15
Level < 53: 16
Level < 54: 17
Level < 55: 19
Level < 56: 20
Level < 57: 21
Level < 58: 22
Level < 59: 24
Level < 60: 25


Class is as follows:

Bard: 14
Cleric: 10
Druid: 10
Enchanter: 11
Magician: 11
Monk: 12
Necromancer: 11
Paladin: 14
Ranger: 14
Rogue: 9.05
Shadowknight: 14
Shaman: 10
Warrior: 9
Wizard: 11


Race is as follows:

Barbarian: 10.5
Dark Elf: 10
Dwarf: 10
Erudite: 10
Gnome: 10
Half-elf: 10
Halfling: 9.5
High elf: 10
Human: 10
Iksar: 12
Ogre: 11.5
Troll: 12
Wood elf: 10


For the curious these values can be found in the util.cpp file in the calc_exp routine. Although it calculates out the total experience for the level, so:
exp_Level = (Level^3) * LMOD * Class * Race

and to calculate the experience required to move between levels
showeq does:
exp_required = calc_exp(Level) - calc_exp(Level - 1)

This is because it needs the full base experience from the previous level for other purposes.

Using the above values and Cryonics formula yields for a level 54 wood elven druid to get to level 55 would require:
((55^3)*19 - (54^3)*17)*10*10 = 48423700

And inside ShowEQ it does:
((55^3)*19*10*10) - (54^3)*17*10*10) = 48423700

Which seems somewhat closer to reality.

Enjoy,
Zaphod (dohpaZ)

[Kurack]

Go here (http://www.geocities.com/sstair/)...

[SeqTester]

Nice, Thanks

[skellt]

The chart that Kurack links to, looks totally correct to me. It shows slightly higher LMODS for 56+ than Cryonic's chart, but is otherwise the same. Unfortunately the maker of the chart doesn't apply hybrid class bonus per kill, so his rightmost column seems to be incorrect. I emailed him about it.

Skellt

[Spaz]

To address an earlier comment:

Pre-50 hell levels = gone.
I've seen it with my own characters... on a side note, the level after hell (ie: 31, 36, 41, 46) seems to be slower than previous. My thought is that they probably evened out the curve quite a bit.


51-59 are appear unchanged.

[RSB]

Thats what they said. It will still take the same amount of xp to get to level 50 just wont be as curvy.

As to their Mathmagics.....some people are going to loose xp, they have too.

Think about it the easiest thing for them to do is straighten the curve then go to each player and calculating where they'd be on that curve given they same point in the current level.

given that a human warrior (by the OLD charts) needs
157,500,000 xp
level 30 starts at 21,950,100
and ends at 26,730,000
needing 4,779,900 xp

now that level 30s xp needs only about 3,100,000 since the curve as been flatten and about 460k of xp is applied to each level after (I know that is linear but for the example it is good enough)
If someone had 3,100,000 in level 30 they'd be about
65% of the way through the level but if they kept them at 25,050,100 they would have logged in and dinged. So what Verant have had to do is go
Ok new point is for level 31 is 25,050,100 instead of 26,730,000
to keep this guy in level 30 at the same point we need to put him at 65% of the way through the current level which is

(25,050,100 - 21,950,100 ) * .65 = new xp in current level 2,015,000

thus they made this player loose 1 million xp. The people that get hurt is everyone if I've figured it right. The closer you are to a hell level the better off you are but still almost everyone is going to get hit that has a char between 30 and 50.

Because everyone sees the same point on the xp bar they won't even realise over all they've taken less than 1% of the total xp to level 50 for this guy but still we shouldn't be fooled.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

Actually, they were also quoted as saying "It is no easier to get to level 50 now."

My guess is the adjusted all XP curves to even out the hell levels. No experience got removed to get to 50. To figure "current" XP for a player they took the percentage through their current level, and adjusted their raw XP so it would stay at the curr percentage.

Just my thoughts, I could be way off... This is how I would do it if I was in their position.. nobody "looks" like they are gaining or losing XP, nobody gets to 50 any faster/slower than before (from level 1, not from any specific level).. every one is blissfully ignorant of any slowdown that has happened, because it is spread out between all the non-hell levels, but the speed increase is huge in the hell levels...

--Jeeves

[RSB]

My point is that you can't spread out AND have people not loose xp AND not have peoples xp bar move.

Either people have to loose xp if they've spreed the xp up. IE the extra xp you would have needed in level 30 is spread over the levels 30 - 34.

The person hardest hit is the person that was JUST about to get out of Hell. Would be easy to prove with SEQ. Before the change look at a level 30 - 50 level total xp then compare it to to the total xp after. Your xp bar won't change, but total distance to the end of the race (level 51) does.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

I agree.. people probably lost XP, but that loss is overall irrelevant... the only people that could prove it happened would be people who were cheating :).

--Jeeves

[RSB]

Verant have pissed me off so much over the years with their lieing and lack of knowledge of their own code.

You say go else where? I like the game generally, like the people I play with even more. But I went out to get DAoC today but store didn't have it. Thinking of starting up my AO account agian. But I'm really hanging out for NWN.

They realistically couldn't announce this nerf (and that is what it is....an xp nerf. Non hell levels become longer and you loose a small portion of your xp. How could they tell some players well your going to loose a shitload of xp but joe because he's just got to level 35 won't loose enough to even look at.

Funcom are straight and narrow it seems with their nerfing. Yup where doing it .... seee ya.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

Because, bottom line is, it isnt really a nerf overall. They were afraid of people over-reacting, exactly like you are. It takes exactly the same amount of experience to get to 50 as it did before, there has been no net change. All they did is redistribute XP so it "seems" better. I'm sure before this, you were one of the people bitching about hell levels... you cant have it both ways, they werent going to just make the game 5% easier all of a sudden.

Try to see it from their shoes, they have to make 400,000 people (well, accounts, < 400,000 people) happy. That includes both people who still have hell levels to go through,a nd people who dont. If they just "removed" the experience from hell levels without redistributing it, then everyone who had gone through those hell levels already would have "lost" experience.

I've played both AO and DAoC... both games have their problems, more so than EQ if you ask me. If you have a problem with EQ, and would rather play one of the others, than please moving along, and take your holier than thou, Verant is the big evil giant (who created this amazing game that I have been playing for over 3 years now) attitude with you.

--Jeeves

[Mr Guy]

I'm not sure you are right high_jeeves.

They could EASILY reduce the total amount of exp needed to hit 50, remove hell levels, and STILL not have anyone's exp bar move in the slightest, and NO ONE COULD PROVE IT.


They would just need to subtract exp from everyone on a ratio:

*Warning, making numbers up from this point on*

Now that they've gone to fractions for exp, there is no longer ANY need for "real" exp numbers.

As long as before, and after the exp change everyone has the same X/330 no one can tell the difference. Actually, from my understanding, it would simply seem like they upped the experience on every mob.

All they'd need to do is stop storing the large number they used to store, and instead store: Your Level, Your X/330. Then they merely change their leveling algorithm to ding on X >= 330. They'd also need to change their exp algorithm to compute the old EXP value it would have earned before and calculate how much exp it would earn now relative to your level. The "real" exp require for leveling would be in a simple table lookup.

Presto, hell levels are gone by changing the "real" value in the table lookup, showeq can't even prove exp is missing since we make up the "real" number on our end, and EVERY level can be individually adjusted to be a smoother curve, without needing to compensate by making other levels noticably harder.

[high_jeeves]

Yes Mr. Guy, but in your post, you yourself state something that would be unacceptable:


They could EASILY reduce the total amount of exp needed to hit 50

They dont want to reduce the total amount of XP to hit 50, they want it to take exactly as long to get from 1-50 as it did before, they just want the levels to be more evenly distributed. So, doing it your way (Which actually, wouldnt work because of rounding issues, if i'm understanding you correctly), would make it easier to reach 50 (effectively by 4 levels).

When I say your method, i mean storing only X/330 instead of the big number, the problem is that many MOBS give less than 1/330th of a level, causing problems. If you meant storing a real value of X instead of an integer value for X, this becomes effectivly the same as sending a big number (both is space on the datastream, and in our ability to discern the "real" numbers).

--Jeeves

[Mr Guy]

They do want it to be easier to hit 50. Hence speeding 1-10. Hence adding more exp rezzing.

They created tons of 50-55 "low end game" (for lack of a better description material that isn't getting used, while certain zones are packed out. They want people to hang out at 40 - 50 and play in places like Tenebrous, Dawnshroud, TimDeep, Grimling Forrest, Wakening Lands. The Pre-50 content is old, they want you to get your twinks up to a level they are more fun to play, and play in some of the zones people skip because they aren't the best exp-grind group zones.

I disagree with your basic tenant they want 50 to take the same amount of time. It seems fairly obvious to me they are trying to address the issue of mid level casual players quitting before they get to "low end game" encounters.


*Edit

Note, I wasn't arguing they'd save space doing it my way. I was arguing they could do it easily without anyone being able to prove anything. I'm not sure about this, but even at level 50, is there anything you can hunt that gives experience that require more than 660 for a full level? If not, you'd only need to save a one bit 'partial' exp flag.

[high_jeeves]

The only reason I disagree with you is because of this quote:


The goal was to smooth the path from 30 to 50, not to make it require less overall gameplay, or happen faster. The intent wasn't to get people from 30 to 50 any faster.

From



Scott Hartsman
Technical Director, EverQuest


This was posted about 3 days ago.

So, I think it is fair to say that they DID NOT want to speed up leveling, only smooth it out... clear enough?

--Jeeves

[high_jeeves]

Also, there are things you can hunt that would give < 1/660th of a level, especially at 55+ in a group of 6 people, much less than 1/660th of a level actually.

--Jeeves

[RSB]

It is a nerf.

Yes it still takes you the same amount of xp to get to 50 (no change there)

Hell levels are gone (the xp for them is now spreed up across th next four level)

Problem is that they are keeping everyone at the same VISIBLE point not the same XP point.

So the smooth out that xp up to the next 4 levels but keep you at the same point in the current level. This means they have to REMOVE xp from your total.

BTW serverside they still have the big numbers.

Hardest hit people are those that where just about to get out of hell. Because about half of their hell level was wasted as they have to stay at 99% in their current level but that 2 million plus xp they had over the new endpoint of the level they are in is now just dropped off.

For characters Pre 30 and post 50 it doesn't matter but for everyone else the following rules applies

If you will loose xp. The greatest amount of xp loose is at hell level + 1 (end of hell level begining of next). Xp loss goes up sharply in hell the further along hell you where then tappers slowly down accross the next 4 levels but EVERYONE (unless they are exactly at the begining of hell) between 30 and 50 will loose xp.

For those that don't believe me here is the old and new xp charts.
Note that the begining of 30 and beginning of 35 are the same its just evenly spread now



Lvl Old Start Old End Old Total New Start New End New Total
29 19,756,800 21,950,100 2,193,300 19,756,800 21,950,100 2,193,300
30 21,950,100 26,730,000 4,779,900 21,950,100 24,973,992 3,023,892
31 26,730,000 29,493,090 2,763,090 24,973,992 28,176,084 3,202,092
32 29,493,090 32,440,320 2,947,230 28,176,084 31,562,316 3,386,232
33 32,440,320 35,577,630 3,137,310 31,562,316 35,138,628 3,576,312
34 35,577,630 38,910,960 3,333,330 35,138,628 38,910,960 3,772,332
35 38,910,960 38,910,960



now you may say that isn't to bad but look at the following table which shows the same levels and how much xp you will loose at each level depending on where you are in the level. I've uses 1/2 yellow increaments (ie 10%)



10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90%
30 175,601 351,202 526,802 702,403 878,004 1,053,605 1,229,206 1,404,806 1,580,407
31 1,712,108 1,668,208 1,624,307 1,580,407 1,536,507 1,492,607 1,448,707 1,404,806 1,360,906
32 1,273,106 1,229,206 1,185,305 1,141,405 1,097,505 1,053,605 1,009,705 965,804 921,904
33 834,104 790,204 746,303 702,403 658,503 614,603 570,703 526,802 482,902
34 395,102 351,202 307,301 263,401 219,501 175,601 131,701 87,800 43,900


Thankfully my only character that will be effected is level 35 and only 9% into it so only loose xp for a few kills.

Now if you can look at the numbers and say it isn't a nerf then you are not based in reality. I except this nerf as a good thing overall but it IS a nerf none the less.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

Yes people will lose XP, if you want to call that a nerf, fine.. I dont consider it a nerf... I had a character that was 1 blue from exiting 35, so I got hit as bad as anyone... the bottom line is, there is NO other way to do it... none... I hear you bitching about how it was done, but I havnt heard you suggest a better way.. Give me all my experience? Then in one day I just from 35 to 36 (probably 37 actually, since they would also have to reimburse me for 30)? This is not acceptable.. Its not good for the game as a whole...

Bitch all you want, until I hear you come up with a better solution, they have the best one... I'm getting the feeling that RSB just wants to complain about something, and since he got robbed of some experience (event tho there is no better way to do it, and him getting robbed of some experience helps the game as a whole) he decides to call this a nerf. Give these guys a break.. you bitch when its broken, you bitch when they fix it... I think if I worked at verant, I would never fix shit because people like you bitch no matter what...

--Jeeves

[RSB]

ok 1st if you read my posts full you'd see overall I think this is a good move. My problem is that verant are claiming no one is hurt by this because of "Mathmagic" which is BS. I don't have much of a problem with alot of Verants nerfs....it is their constant coverup and lies that annoy the shit out of me.

At worst case this means a level 31 will have to kill about 21 or 22 white mobs (solo) or 120 white mobs in a group to recover the xp. For the frustration it saves I think it is well worth it. Just don't like their lies that it won't adversely effect anyone.

Just like it took Verant 2 weeks of monks screaming their heads off before they admitted that they nerfed FD 2 and half years ago. Verant for a FACT constantly lie to their player base.

Reread my post and I think you'll find you'll need to retract part of your statement...say that I just like to complain could still be valid but it isn't and only I know that for sure.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

I read your post... actually, I read it twice...

The bottom line is still simple, this post belongs on whineplay, because that is what it is. You are claiming "lost" experience, yes, your experience number went down, but you didnt move backwards in the game, you didnt "lose" anything but a number, which has meaning only as it relates to level (which DIDNT CHANGE AT ALL). You proved in your post that my total number of experience points has changed, but please provide another solution.. remember, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem.. so far, I have seen no ideas from you of something else that could have been done... just whining.

I am asking that you give me one thing that Verant has said (please quote, in full, dont paraphrase) which has been a lie, on any subject... While there have been incidents of misunderstandings by the one person who writes to the community, I have never seen an out and out lie. I remeber that line in the bible that says RSB is perfect (that was in genesis, wasnt it?), these types of mistakes happen. It is a company with lots of people, and programmers (yes, I am one of them) are notoriously bad at explaining to a lay-person what has been done. When you grow up, and have to work at a company (or if you already do, when you have to manage people and projects), you will learn that you cant provide all the information accurately all of the time, misinformation happens, sometimes even for long periods of time...

There is no conspiracy theory here to rob RSB of experience, JFK and Elvis are not involved.. the aliens are also staying away.. please take your nerf whines to a different board where they belong...

--Jeeves

[RSB]

Think about what you just said


your experience number went down, but you didnt move backwards in the game, you didnt "lose" anything but a number,


End point is still a number.. that number for a human warrior is
157,500,000

If I bump you from 26,730,000 to 24,973,992 and in both cases you have to get to 157,500,000 you've lost ground even if they've moved the milestones


as to your question

am asking that you give me one thing that Verant has said (please quote, in full, dont paraphrase)

hear is an un doctored statement from
Scott Hartsman
Technical Director, EverQuest



The overall path isn't any easier to reach level 50 -- a retroactive experience boost wouldn't really be called for. Down the line of what I said at the last fan faire, "If we did something with hell levels, we would have to find a fair solution that didn't affect anyone's existing experience or progress."

We found that solution.

I agree with the "fair solution" but not the "didn't affect anyone's existing experience"

That is a lie so isn't the existing expience progress race analogy....end point is still the same, they've just shuffled the check points and thrown you back.

If you can't understand the numbers I'm sorry I accept not all people are mathamatically inclined....I myself can't draw a picture worth shit.


I have never seen an out and out lie.
Just because you don't recall/where around/didn't care about something doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact is they do lie and SEQ has caught them in lies over and over. I also take them making statements that are untrue because they are clueless about their own statements a lie. With the FD nerf 2 1/2 years ago I was a guide also played a monk guide, I did A LOT of testing and showed them the numbers because I had a week of petitions from monks dieing. Verant came out and told the monk comunity that they changed NOTHING. Then 2 weeks later said We only changed how it worked with mobs over level 35. Over the next few weeks they kept altering their statements.

Its not a conspiracy. Its just not in their best intrest to come out with the whole truth in this matter. Its the statement that I've quoted above that has me pissed off. Now you'll porbably interpret it as something different but most of us would say that no one is negatively affected and that really isn't the case.

The case is that someone at level 31 has just been put back 1.1% back in the journey to 50. Not much. I accept that. Even a level 45 player that gets set back 3.5% of the whole journey ( this is the worst effected player) thats almost 40 level 40 mobs they have to kill to get back to the point they where before the change....yes that would suck so close to the end to be told you basically have to get 2/3s of a level more now (at level 46) to get to 50 then you did yesterday.

My opinion is they should have said "we are taking out the hell levels, the same total xp is needed to get to level 50 as before and you stay at the same point in the level as you where in as before".

No inacurate statements there...they just don't boldly say "we're chopping off a bit off xp to make this work withouth haveing some people ding from the end of level 45 to the begining of level 46.

Misinformation happens WAY to much at verant in my opinion.
I'm a contract because I don't like to play political games. Has it made me loose a contract yet? Nope. My experience is its better to tell the customer bad news quickly then to give them false or no news. The statements that get made many times are by the supposed people that are responsible for that area. If they make inaccurate statements about their area of expertise then they are either 1) lieing or 2) aren't doing their job good enough...if they don't know the correct answer they should either get it or get someone that does now it to make the statements.

I have a team of developers that work for me. If I'm not confident answering a question I'm asked then I call in someone that does know. No pride lost in the fact that I don't know all the answers, but I DAMN sure know where to get the right answer if it is out there.

RSB

[RSB]

How about this

"Players will loose different amounts of xp depending on where they are but other enhancements we've put in the game should compinsate for this by making it a bit easy to do the rolls the classes are meant to do"

Which is a true statement. They are making it easier to gain levels in a number of different ways.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

I agree with the "fair solution" but not the "didn't affect anyone's existing experience"

This is clearly a matter of perspective, it didnt affect anyone's experience. Experience is the amount you are through your current level, NOT some number that you happen to know because you have access to the packet stream. If they all of a sudden decided that their experience was scaled to high and divided everyone's experience by 10, would that be a nerf? No, of course not, because you didnt move in the game.


If you can't understand the numbers I'm sorry I accept not all people are mathamatically inclined....I myself can't draw a picture worth shit.

Thanks, however, I do have a BS in Math... I understand the numbers, you however cant seem to understand anything but the numbers. The number is relevant ONLY as it relates to level. Level didnt change, so the change of the number is 100% irrelevant. You didnt move backwards. The path forwards perhaps got a bit harder, but now we are talking about a "hey, this was easier for him and now its harder for me" problem, which is 100% whining. What about them upgrading Cazic? Thats a nerf right? Some other guy was able to level from 32-36 there, I cant do it! NERF! NERF! They made it harder for me to level to 50 by taking out a zone I could use! The bastards!


My opinion is they should have said "we are taking out the hell levels, the same total xp is needed to get to level 50 as before and you stay at the same point in the level as you where in as before".

I can tell you dont play politics, and that you do contract work... this would alienate the entire fan base, all 400,000 people... that is not a good idea.. pissing off customers = bad. So far, on the boards I generally peruse, you are the ONLY person that has been upset by this change... whose way of saying it is better, yours, whioch would have pissed off everyone, or Verants, which pissed on one guy?


I have a team of developers that work for me. If I'm not confident answering a question I'm asked then I call in someone that does know. No pride lost in the fact that I don't know all the answers, but I DAMN sure know where to get the right answer if it is out there.


Now we're back to the part about RSB being 100% perfect... I have a team of people working for me, many of them have teams of people working for them.. I ask one of my managers a question, he checks with one of his people. Do I always get 100% accurate information? No, we're playing telephone here at this point.. i ask a question, the manager re-asks it (coming from his viewpoint), the question is answered, and translated to me (again, from his viewpoint). What happens? Sometimes mis-information, sometimes missing information. Does is happen often? No, not really.. At a company like Verant, with a very active customer base and 1 point of contact, will this happen ocassionally over 3 years? Yes, absolutely... Does this mean it is a maliscous lie? No, of course not...

Have you never had to tell one of the people you are contracting for: that information I gave you the other day was not correct, here is the correct information? Of course you have... Were you lying? No.. Has your contract manager ever said: well, you told us this, but this other thing seems to be the case? Of course... Were you lying? No... Lets try applying the same standard to a company that has spend countless time and energy generating a game that we have all enjoyed. I personally have been playing since Beta 4.. thats almost 3.5 years I've played this game... that beats any other video game by about 3.2 years for me... not bad for a bunch of lying bastards who are out to get us and make our lives hell!

--Jeeves

[RSB]

Jeeves STRAIGHT out you are twisting me words.


If you owned a house and had $120,000 to pay over 10 years (not considering interests) you'd have to pay $1,000. If the bank said Hey we just lost a bit over $1,000 that you paid us but we've figure away that doesn't effect you, You'll still only have 10 years left on your loan and we still consider that you only have to pay the $150,000 but we are just going to spread that $1,000 you lost over the next few months. That way we both win. What would you say? In essence this is what they've done. (that being said I agree with the changing of xp where I don’t agree with what example I’ve just given)


Experience is the amount you are through your current level

This shows me your head is in the sand. Many people don't look at where they are in terms of the current level they look at the total picture.


No, of course not, because you didn’t move in the game.



You didn’t move backwards.

The path forwards perhaps got a bit harder

You have a BS in Math and your a programmer but you can't see that those to sentences you made right next to each other are contradictory in logic?


pissing off customers = bad
I consider lying worse and give my customers better credit to accept the truth.
You did move in the game you just don't want to admit it.

This is the type of shit that pisses me off

Now we're back to the part about RSB being 100% perfect
NEVER do I imply I'm perfect. Your the one saying that I'm saying that. Show me where I say anything like that! I showed you the quote you wanted to see from Verant. I notice you've just dismissed that fact haven't you.

Verant even when faced with overwhelming evidence against statements they make don't properly investigate things and continue to say "Nope we're sure about this". That I do consider a lie. If you are negligent in looking at the facts and not getting the right information out then yes I consider that lying.


No, we're playing telephone here at this point

Your are WRONG here. Alan didn't make that statement I showed you. He went directly to the person responsible and that person made a false statement.

I've never said I haven't passed on False information but I do my best not to and if I find out its wrong I inform the customer. If I'm presented with info that disputes it I find out what is going on. I don't just ask the same person the same question and accept the same answer without any further investigation.


Lets try applying the same standard to a company that has spend countless time and energy generating a game that we have all enjoyed.

I'm applying the same standard to Verant that I provide my customers and I expect from the people that work for me. I don't expect a company I work for to accept me not doing my job properly one time because I've done a good job another.

Again lets not twists my words. The numbers I've shown are not presented to say that they shouldn't have implemented this change. I agree with the change personally.

What I don't agree with is calling it "Mathmagic" and that "didn't affect anyone's existing experience or progress." is to me deliberately misleading.

Honestly if you think misleading your employer/customer is good if you think the ends justifies the means then I consider you of very low integrity. I prefer to be straight with people I deal with. Maybe that comes from 6 years in the Marine Corps where integrity is valued. Something I have to admit is sorely lacking from a large part of the civilian population. I’ve actually quit a project because the manager told us not try to cover things up. It happens all the time Verant isn’t any different. They tell nerfs where they know they will get caught but if they think they can slip something in they do then when they get caught go “oh we forgot to tell you about that” Sometimes its an honest mistake but I can’t accept it always being a mistake because if it is then someone (figuratively, I know there is more than one person at Verant before you try to twist that) isn’t doing their job right to often. I do something wrong I admit it. All you seem to want to do is twist my word from saying that they’ve made a false statement here probably to fool most players into me complaining that overall I think that this “nerf” is bad. I agree with the “nerf” I don’t appreciate them trying to fool and mislead their customers with jargon like “Mathmagic”.

Care to try to twist my words again? You don’t do a good job of it if anyone else actually reads my post. Don’t read between my lines. If I haven’t put it in black and white I didn’t mean it.

Honestly I don’t see everyone rallying to your side supporting your idea. You just seem to want to refute and twist everything I say while I’m gave straight out information to let others decide what they want and put my view in that I agree with the nerf but don’t on how they DESCRIBED the nerf.. Want me to bold that for you?

I’d like to hear from others people that normally post to the boards on what they think of it good or bad and if they mind the terminology that was used.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

This shows me your head is in the sand. Many people don't look at where they are in terms of the current level they look at the total picture.

Could you be more wrong? The ONLY people who could POSSIBLY look at experience as more than the current amount through the current level are those with ShowEQ before the 1/330 change.. So your "many" in the quote above is probably about 100 out of 400,000... last i checked, "many" didnt describe less than 1%.


You have a BS in Math and your a programmer but you can't see that those to sentences you made right next to each other are contradictory in logic?

Please point the contradiction out to me.. harder to move forward != moving backwards. It just isnt the same thing. When they removed the manastone from the game, did everyone move backwards? No, ofcourse not... but it did get harder to move forward. They are different things.


I consider lying worse and give my customers better credit to accept the truth.

You give your customers better credit to accept the truth? Look at yourself... if they had given your version of events, how do you think the average customer would have handled this information? You havnt been paying attention to the EQ customer base at all if you think they are good at accepting the truth.


I have a team of developers that work for me. If I'm not confident answering a question I'm asked then I call in someone that does know. No pride lost in the fact that I don't know all the answers, but I DAMN sure know where to get the right answer if it is out there.

Here is your perfection implication for you.. you claim here that you do not give out misinformation... you get the right answer from the right person... quite frankly, thats crap.


Your are WRONG here. Alan didn't make that statement I showed you. He went directly to the person responsible and that person made a false statement.

I note that your quote is from:


Scott Hartsman
Technical Director, Everquest


Do you think he was the developer who worked on this code? The developer who wrote the code is probably 2 people below him (through a tech/team lead/architect).. there is a telephone game going on here, even though Alan wasnt at the end of it.


I notice you've just dismissed that fact haven't you.

Happy? It was never dismissed, I just thought the point above was obvious enough to not refute it.


I don't expect a company I work for to accept me not doing my job properly one time because I've done a good job another.

I still dont understand your basic premise.. what job has Verant not done properly here?


I agree with the “nerf” I don’t appreciate them trying to fool and mislead their customers with jargon like “Mathmagic”.

So this whole argument is over semantics? I'm not at all clear what you would have had them do differently! You dont like their sentance structure? Invalid use of a gerund? Comma in the wrong place? If this is the whole problem, then I dont know why I bothered to argue with you... There was no deception here, you just dont like the word he used to describe the change... you a big Ken Starr fan, i'm guessing?


Honestly I don’t see everyone rallying to your side supporting your idea.

Now thats a silly thing to say, nobody else has posted to this thread in quite a while, nobody seems to be rallying to your side either.

[RSB]

The ONLY people who could POSSIBLY look at experience as more than the current amount through the current level are those with ShowEQ before the 1/330 change..

Most people I play with make comments like "Wooo just got 32 only 4 more levels to that new set of spells" or "I can't wait until I hit 60" Current progress in their level is less important then how much they have left in the race. Maybe we play with different types of people. The fact that the people I play with don't realise they've been moved back a bit farther from 50 doesn't mean it didn't happen.


but it did get harder to move forward

your harder works out to longer. Same difficulty they just pushed you back a bit. Just like taking a runner in a marathon and moving him/her back a quarter mile at the 5 mile mark. End point hasn't changed you've just been pushed back a bit. For that level 45/46 player that was 82.7% done with the race to 51 he/she now finds the he/she has to make up 5.25% of the journey to 50. This is 40 extra white mobs that that player has to kill to get to level 50 than he/she had to last week.


how do you think the average customer would have handled this information? You havnt been paying attention to the EQ customer base at all if you think they are good at accepting the truth.

So you here you are avocating them either 1 lieing or 2 just not saying everything. Well they did say more then 2 so that pushes them into the realm of 1.


but I DAMN sure know where to get the right answer if it is out there.

and if I didn't know or was confindent about and answer and I found out I was wrong or the person I brought into answer the question was wrong I inform the customer when I find out. I accept that mistakes happen its how we handle those mistakes the make the difference. And frankly that isn't crap.


Do you think he was the developer who worked on this code?

No but he's the guy that should make sure he gets the correct answer before he makes a statement and with this change (which isn't some minor obscure detail) I'm sure he and everyone else that has responsibility in this area knows the details...it is not rocked science. Its basic algebra.



I still dont understand your basic premise.. what job has Verant not done properly here?

Sorry I worded my responce poorly there. Its in reference to
Lets try applying the same standard to a company...

Just because they've produce one of the best games out doesn't mean I should except them not being completely truthful. A false/misleading statement was made and it shouldn't have been in my opinion (which you obviously disagree with, which is fine we don't have to agree on the moral issue).


So this whole argument is over semantics?...

Given the fact that a human warrior needs
148,237,740xp to get to level 50
a level 45 warrior last week had
114,817,500xp
but this week has
108,256,500xp
still has to get
148,237,740xp to get to level 50

the following statement is FALSE


didn't affect anyone's existing experience or progress.

yes I don't like that wording because it is 100% false when you know how the system works. Just because 99% of the people do not know the numbers does not make it a true statement.


Now thats a silly thing to say, nobody else has posted to this thread in quite a while, nobody seems to be rallying to your side either

Didn't say they where.

Agian I put the numbers up (which I've looked at and are not 100% accurate but they are close) so people would know what was happening. In addition I said it was crap that they made a false statement. Don't read into it any more than that.

RSB

[RSB]

New xp formula is
for below 30
(Current Level ^3) * Race mod * Class Mod * 10
for between 30 and 49
(Current Level ^3) * Race mod * Class Mod * (10 + ((Current Level - 29) *0.2))

Class is as follows:

Bard: 14
Cleric: 10
Druid: 10
Enchanter: 11
Magician: 11
Monk: 12
Necromancer: 11
Paladin: 14
Ranger: 14
Rogue: 9.05
Shadowknight: 14
Shaman: 10
Warrior: 9
Wizard: 11

Race is as follows:

Barbarian: 10.5
Dark Elf: 10
Dwarf: 10
Erudite: 10
Gnome: 10
Half-elf: 10
Halfling: 9.5
High elf: 10
Human: 10
Iksar: 12
Ogre: 11.5
Troll: 12
Wood elf: 10


Goto http://www.geocities.com/mathmagicexposed/index.html

to see it out

[high_jeeves]

This is my last post on this matter, and it will be a brief one.. we obviously have a different opinion on a few points that neither one of us are going to change our opinions on.

Also, if you are going to make nasty comments about me, please keep them on this board and thread. You didnt see me run over to hackersquest and badmouth you. We may disagree, but that should not affect common courtesy.


So you here you are avocating them either 1 lieing or 2 just not saying everything. Well they did say more then 2 so that pushes them into the realm of 1.

We disagree here, I dont think they lied, they just didnt tell the truth as you see it. They told the truth as 99.9% of the people see it... in their position, any reasonable business person would have done the same thing. They said you didnt lose experience. When I log into the game, and I look at my experience bar, I didnt lose any. That is true to 99.9% of the people who play everquest, and that is all that mattters to 99.9% of the people who play everquest.

Here is an example for you to ponder on, I think it is similar to the current situation, you said you spent some time in the Marine Core, so I think this example is topical:

About a week ago, some high military brass had a press conference regarding operation Anaconda (if you arent a news junkie like me, that is an operation in Afghanistan right now). They said many things about the situation there, didnt say many things about the operation there (rightfully so). Yesterday, I watched another news conference with the same people. A reporter had talked to somebody on the ground, and gotten more detailed (and arguably more accurate) information regarding something that went on (the use of a particular type of military hardware). This information condradicted what was said by the high brass a few days before. Did the high brass lie? Of course not.. should they have know the information before they presented it? of course they should have! did they? no! it was an honest mistake.

I think people have fuzzy memories when it comes to verant. This "misinformation" happens about once every 3-6 month, which I think if you look at it given the size of the company, size and passion of the player base, and communication level between the two, you will find that this is perfectly reasonable amount of "misinformation". Expecting them to be significantly more accurate than this is unrealistic. Expecting them to define everything in your terms (experience loss in your terms vs. in their terms) is also unrealistic.

Even on your terms (having my experience number go down equivalent to 20 or so whites), I gained that in about 2 hours of playing this evening.. not exactly the end of the world..

As I said at the beginning of my post, this is the my last post on this topic. I enjoy arguing, but I wont argue with somebody who feels it necessary to go to a different board and attack me.

--Jeeves

[REH]

Has anyone figured out the experience calcs for Vah Shir or does an SEQ user need to take one to 60 first?

[Zaphod]

REH, you sir have volunteered. Let us have the data when you're done... ;)

Enjoy,
Zaphod (dohpaZ)

[OneDumbPlayer]

I noticed from the link to the exp chart (not the post patch one) is that although level 54 is more than 53, 55-59 all scale up from 54, and 55 is not in fact easier than 54.

Yes, 60 is listed as easier - like everyone claims.

Anyone want to shed light on if this is either wrong or changed. People will swear up and down that 55 is easier than 54....

[SeqTester]

I just dinged 56 and 55 is aprox 5,000,000 more EXP than 54.

54=50MillionEXP
55=55MillionEXP
56=60MillionEXP
^^Aprox^^

[RSB]

If you want you can see a heated discussion between Jeeves and I at
http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=675&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
where he tries to refute the facts and say that I'm just crying "NERF"

Sorry I should have left the "where he tries to refute the facts and say that I'm just crying "NERF" " out
I've removed that line but note I did give them the URL so they could get all the facts.

I would also hardly compair Verant EQ Team with less than 100 employees to the they US Military forces where the Joint Chiefs of Staff actually do have more on their plates then just the war on terrorism and about 5-6 million people under them. Also not sure what story your talking about but some parts of it may have been classified and Most of the time they say they won't comment on something when asked about certian hardware etc. I also have a problem with how the reporters can distort things by only showing part of what was said. For example when the reporters took Bush's statement of "Wanted Dead or Alive" out of context.


I dont think they lied, they just didnt tell the truth as you see it.

This statement made me laugh a bit but I understand you think that Varant never lie. Maybe in this case they haven't either but if you think back to stuff you've said before you say you'd hold back infromation not to piss off your customers. That is not lieing I understand but willfully withholding information. If they are not lieing they need to improve their comunication channels a bit more. Ask your friendly mage that was doing their epic when if first came out and Verant said over and over that it was in completely then 2 months later the magic missing piece everyone was complaining about started dropping. Now yes the RNG on every server may have skill that item on the loot table for 2 months but it isn't likely. How much information should verant have to be given before they take a closer look at what the customers are saying. There are alot of examples of that. Not just every couple of months.

I agree it isn't the end of the world, I agree that the change is an overall good one. I also feel for the man or woman that just hit 46 that unknowingly finds themself 6 million points short of 50 or to put it in perspective having to repeat the same as half of level 45 agian over the next 4 levels to get to 50. 220 white mobs in a group is alot when you where almost at the end of the race to 50.

RSB

[RSB]

Figured out if they spread the xp down.

IE instead of

((Cur Lvl ^3) * RaceMod * ClassMod * (10 + ((Cur Lvl -29) * 0.2))
to
for levels 25 to 45
((Cur Lvl ^3) * RaceMod * ClassMod * (10 + ((Cur Lvl -25) * 0.2))
46 to 50 would have a constant level mod of 14

No one would have lost xp. Actually everyone would have gaine some xp and people would have had the same amount of distance to get to level 50 as they did before without moving their xp bar.

So basically it would have spread Hell level down to the previous 4 levels.

Ah well.

RSB

[high_jeeves]

Do you feel better now RSB? Now only did we not lose XP, we may have gained some? Looks like mathemagic rules the day, Verant's statements were 100% correct, and you are having crow for lunch today...

--Jeeves

[Cryonic]

OK, so which formula is it, did they spread the exp up or down from the hell levels?

SEQ is patched against this change:

http://seq.sourceforge.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=752

and it is tracking my characters progression pretty good (EQ shows two yellows in 42, SEQ shows 40%).

[RSB]

Ummm High_jeeves, I said IF
the levels 26 to 29 have not gotten harder from my understanding.
Verant said that they've only changed levels 30 to 50.

So no I don't feel better, I feel worse because someone like me after only looking at the numbers for a few hours could have found a win win situation that they did not.

The xp is from the looks of it

((Cur Lvl ^3) * RaceMod * ClassMod * (10 + ((Cur Lvl -29) * 0.2))

Sorry Jeeves to make you think I was going to have to appologise for being wrong about the xp loss. I would have gladly done it if it was true. I just pointed out what they could have done. You said come up with a better answer and I did. They just didn't do it.

RSB

[Mynn]

Okay, I suck at math. But what RSB is saying *seems* right, if I am reading it correctly.

Using totally made up numbers, it's something like this, right:

at it's simplest (with made up numbers)

10 points = level 1
10,000 points = X (hell level)
11,500 points = X + 1
12,250 points = X + 2
13,000 points = X + 3
13,750 points = X + 4
14,500 points = X + 5 (hell level 2)

But now it's more along the lines of

10,000 points = X (hell level)
10,900 points = X + 1
11,800 points = X + 2
12,700 points = X + 3
13,600 points = X + 4
14,500 points = X + 5 (hell level 2)

[RSB]

Yup looks like a good generalization to me.

RSB

[Cryonic]

OK, here's what happens when I get bored. Made an excel spreadsheet (no I won't post it here) that allows you to select Race and Class (simple sheet so it allows selections that aren't really possible, e.g. Iksar Enchanter). If I have the formulas correct then it should be working.

OLD EXP FORMULA:
Level^3*Race*Class*LevelMod

LevelMod was:
1 - 29: 10
30 - 34: 11
35 - 39: 12
40 - 44: 13
45 - 50: 14

NEW EXP FORMULA:
Level^3*Race*Class*LevelMod

LevelMod Now is:
1 - 29 10
30 10.2
31 10.4
32 10.6
33 10.8
34 11
35 11.2
36 11.4
37 11.6
38 11.8
39 12
40 12.2
41 12.4
42 12.6
43 12.8
44 13
45 13.2
46 13.4
47 13.6
48 13.8
49 14

To calculate the numeric exp lost if you in the range of 30 - 49 is:

(Old_Begin_Point - New_Begin_Point) + (Old_XP_For_Level - New_XP_For_Level)*%_Into_Level

Example:
Level 30 Character

Old_Begin_Point = Exp needed to clear 29
New_Begin_Point = Exp needed to clear 29 (in this example Old and New are the same)

Old_XP_For_Level = What it used to take to clear level 30
New_XP_For_Level = What it now takes to clear level 30

%_Into_Level = Where you were in that specific level (i.e. 10%, 20%, etc...).

To see the sample page:

http://www.public.asu.edu/~hellgate/eq.htm

[gore]

I've not verified the new XP tables personally, but for argument's sake I'll assume them to be accurate.

Actual values of total EXP had to change. Adjusting the curve while maintaining the same apparent progress through the same level to the end user means that this simply has to happen.

Unless...

VI did some really complicated stuff.

They could adjust EXP gains based on how much EXP a person had prior to the change. I.E.: the guy who had just hit 41 prior to the patch would have his curve between 41-45 modified so that it works out in the end. They could generate a modifier based on how much extra EXP a person had, and apply that to all the kills until the next hell level was reached.

This seems very clumsy and hard to implement, but it certainly wouldn't be impossible.

The question is: has anybody tested this using SEQ? Is EXP gained per kill consistant regardless of a character's pre-patch progress?

-gore

[Cryonic]

For all of my characters that fell in the "Screw you" range (30 - 50), exp gained from kills seems to be the same as it was prior to the patch. They do not seem to be scaling the exp to give me back what they must have taken away.

[RSB]

xp for a given mob has not changed.

the page
http://www.public.asu.edu/~hellgate/eq.htm
is essentially showing the same info as
http://www.geocities.com/mathmagicexposed
that has been out for the last 5 days

[Cryonic]

I didn't realize that I had duplicated someone elses work. Oh well, at least I now know that someone else already did it.

[RSB]

I don't have any problem with that. More heads that come to a consensis (spelling?) the more likely its true.

I'm working on a new web page that lets you play with the numbers but I'm not good with JScript so having fun learning while I do it 8).

RSB

[RSB]

not sure about beast lord as I don't have a character of that type but the racial modifier for the Vah Shir is 10 or 1 depending on the formula you use

rsb

[devnul]

one example

the 'solo' AA nerf

the hell level nerf

more often they 'lie' because they have no clue about what is actually going on, but occasionally they blatantly lie to avoid criticism

devnul

[cbreaker]

They say that it's no easier to get to level 50, yet it really does seem that the non-hell levels pre-50 are just as easy as before.

And the exp gained in the hell levels just seems doubled or more.

They may just be saying that so that nobody bitches.